Last week I was reading a series of posts from this bhai, NayaJivan.
http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=84713

He seemed to be going through a crisis and was inclined to take his life. He posted in sajha and seemed to be reaching out to people. One of the things this bhai was saying was that he was disconnected from the way Nepalese think. For me, reading his posts, it was obvious that he was influenced by American culture to the point that he did not know how Kathmandu culture functions. Kathmandu culture is not the whole culture of Nepal, but Kathmandu culture, for obvious reasons,  influences the rest of Nepal disproportionately compared to other major cities in Nepal.
As sad and sympathetic as I was reading this bhai's posts, one thing that really struck me about the way this NayaJivan bhai wrote was that he sounded like someone expressing pain on Oprah. What this bhai did not seem to understand is that in Nepal, we don't have an Oprah culture. In our poor nation life is merciless to those who fall behind. If someone is in pain, we are more likely to blame them for doing something wrong. We are a nation with very few resources and we encourage our children to be baatho enough to, by hook or crook, be able to get their way. There is no room for stragglers who fall behind in our culture. We encourage them to be someone who is baatho and is able to make even a bad situation work for them. We tell them to be chaalu in being able to do office politics, business or whatever to get their way. In Kathmandu we highly respect people who can get their way in all kinds of circumstances. In fact, in many ways, these are the kinds of people we want to be connected with for 'source force.'
But interestingly enough, as much as we encourage these qualities in our children, when these same children grow up and some of them become politicians who find all kinds of creative ways to be baatho at the common man's expense, we express great regret. We call these politicians all kinds of negative names like corrupt and evil. And yet, in many ways it seems that we teach our children to be baatho and encourage being able to survive in Kathmandu culture by hook or crook. How contradictory?

How much are we Nepalese responsible for the quality of politicians that we produce by the culture that we encourage? Or is this like pointing to the emperor that he has no clothes on? 

Honeyji
It's for those people who get offended and who are proud Vedic-Hindu and Tantric-Buddhist. They get sensitive when we criticize their religion. I don't think we're inferior in any sense, we're simply arrogant and afraid to accept changes esp with religion, believing in false pride, unrealistic practices.
Your example of sojo person is value oriented and our determination as a society of our priorities. If everybody adamantly stick together and not yell or call a looser to your bit retarded (but honest) son over the crooked neighbor, things will get better. But nooo..that will never happen.

Rewire,

I like the point you are making about being humble enough to recognize and admit to bad qualities so that we might be able to work on it and improve ourself. I think you're right. If we don't even have the self-honesty and humility as a people and a society to admit our bad qualities, then where would improvement come from?

But, Rewire, what I am also saying is that what I see in Nepali culture is that it is not possible to be honest and a good person living in Nepal if you don't have power, money and social connections. It is so difficult to be an honest and good person without power, money and social connection that it is only a theoretical ideal. Practically it is not possible.
Now compared to Nepal, in America it is so much easier to be an honest and good person without much power, money or social connection.

The fact is that in Kathmandu, the system is so weak that you get further ahead economically and politically being a bad (corrupt and unethical) person. In Kathmandu you are a lot less likely to be caught doing bad things.
America is just the opposite. Here it is so much easier to be good and honest. And since the ramifications of being bad are not good at all because America has a strong legal system, large prisons, your credit-rating is affected, fellony charge goes on your permanent record, etc. So in America being bad, you don't get too far in life.
So in America there is so much more incentive to being good than bad. In Kathmandu, it is just the opposite.

Do you agree?

I think it all depends. Nepali government is like that. Now see I am blaming somebody (government). But this is my question here- "You don't get paid enough then what you expect??" Government officer level salary is say around Rs 10000 and how about the expenditures you have including your children education. So there needs to be a way to come to spend which brings corruption. In my opinion people of  Nepal have gone through the phase and have to do to survive of what Homeyji is talking about and there is need but this doesn't mean I am encouraging it.

To Syanjali: I thought Hanuman was bramachari and I think you might be talking about Sugrip 

Peace !!

I am sure there are thousands of people in Nepal who are sojo and yet living a descent life.  Not everyone has to be crook to live a good life.  I am sure we can find tons of people in American society also who are crook and have cheated in one way or other to make money or advance in career.  You can probably get many examples in Wall Street. 

We use the terms ghus/source/force in Nepal to get our things done, and I know its pretty common. We can also similar culture in America: for instances, networking for getting jobs, lobbying by businesses to get big contracts and so on.  However, if we just concentrate on doing our 8-5 job in sojo nepali way, we may not be able to step up in corporate ladder in this country.  Those people who have the ability to bring work/expand business ( again issue of lobby may exists) are the ones who will be regarded as successful.  I am not sure just being a sojo in America will give people an opportunity to be very successful in his/her career. 

राहुलभाइ को नेपालयात्रा पढ्नु भयो होला, कुनै नौलो कुरा थिएन नेपाल बासी हरुको लागि तर लामो समय पछी देश फर्किए र आफनै संचित जागिरे पैसामा पनि काम छोडेर जान लाग्दा के के न गरिदिएर ठेग्गा पट्टी गर्ने सङ मुनाफाको अन्स मागे झै महसुस गर्नु भयो ।

यो खाली नेपाल यात्रालाई जोड्ने धागो मात्रै हो अन्यथा न लिनु होला ।
घुस्याहा हरुको मानसिकता को कुरा मात्रै हो ' हामीमा दया माया भन्ने कुरा परिवार मा मात्रै सिमित छ र यो त सन्स्कारले पाएको गुण हो , मौका परेको बेलामा सोहोर्न नसके सधैं पछी पारीने कुरा दिमागमा सबै भन्दा अगाडि आउछ, मृत्‍यु सैया मा पुगेको बेला हाम्रो धावण्य थुप्रो तिर मात्रै हुन्छ, ति परिवारले के भोद्गैछन मा जाँदाइन, उनिहरुको आसुको मुल्य हुँदैन तर हामी स्वर्ग द्वार खोलिदिने नाममा दान को मात्रा बडाउने तिर मात्रै हुन्छ, यि सन्स्कार मा हुर्केका हामीले काममा घुस खानु र माग्नु पछाडि कुनै लज्जा हुँदैन, दया र मानवता पहिलाई निमिट्यान्न भै सकेको छ।
यि माथिका कुरा एक मित्रले दिएको प्रवचन् हो, कटु सत्य हो ।

ब्यक्तिगत स्वार्थले नैतीकअतालाई धेरै पछी छोडेको हुन्छ त्यो तेतिखेर मात्रै खोजी हुन्छ जब तिनिहरुलाई अरु जस्ताइ आबस्यक हुन्छ।  But this is my question here- "You don't get paid enough then what you expect?? घुस  को तर्क गराइ उनिहरुको घुस्याहा पर्बितिलाई समेट्ने आधार खडा गर्ने खोजेको मात्री हो , जो जागिरे छैन तिनिहरुले कहाँ बाट उथाउने ?

घुस्याहरुको नयाँ भनाइ " नोकरी पायौ भाग्यले , पैसा बनायौ कर्मले " , नयाँ कर्म घुस् खानु हो । तेसै राजनीति गर्ने हरु झन जाली फटाहा उनिहरुको के कुरा, छल गन्ने काममा भर्ती भए पनि पैसानै बनाउने हुन।

I agree with AAAA and am a bit disappointed with Homeyji's posting here.

Again, it all related on how you were raised and what your religion,culture told you to believe.

"The need of the many outweigh the need of the few" That statement does not exist in our culture which is as simple yet the most powerful thing that can mold a society.
There is no such thing as "perfect society", we know that. Yet if majority of the people are on the right path, a few Wall Street crooks will not deter the majority of people from doing the right thing. "The need of the many outweigh the need of the few" That's a million dollar statement (philosophy..whatever u want to call) right there, wish I was taught that in school.When we are talking about corruption, we're talking about things that are "for the people" and that can change a civilization in the long run. We're talking about budget to build streets, bridge, school, health care, school, parks etc etc and many other infrastructures. Those types of corruption does not happen so rampant in the US. Of course, there might be few, but again  remember "The need of the many outweigh the needs of the few". This nation is where it is now because most federal/state budget and the tax money are used pretty decently "for the people", at least compared to Nepal. Now you might disagree and say Nepal is better, but it is just my observation and does not have to be true.
Yes Haliburten gets a huge contract in Iraq...does not mean that people's life in the US go upside down. Who f!!ing cares? As long as the government provides people with jobs and a comfortable life and as long as their tax money is spent on the right thing, that Haliburton's deal means nothing, and they do not go saying "They're doing it, so we gonna do it too" and everybody start going trippin on "corruption" buzz.
That my friend is the corruption we're talking about. Corruption that can destroy a civilization, corruption in matters that are "for the majority of the population".
Try this...find the same saying in English  "Jun Jogi Aye Pani Kani Cherey Ko". Guess what..they don't have one cause their ancestor probably belied that things will not always be the "same", unlike ours. Now you're not going to tell our anciestor were wiser than theirs.

Ya I agree with you Bhojpure01. And I am not talking about personal matters here and I "strongly" discourage corruption. The only thing I was trying to raise was a question about "society" which is like that. But write it down your work can't be done (may take ages to do w/o) anywhere in government office until so called "ghuss" is passed or you know somebody. I understand that there are people who are not on that category. But again the thing is even if officer level people think like that then how about the people who have no status like them?? 

 Peace !!

Pire:
Jealousy is in every living things and human has the most and on the top of it WE Nepali has it. Somehow it is needed otherwise we will not be moving ahead but it must be productive.

One thing for sure, if any one builds empire on short period there must be some ethical issue. Regarding the Employment agency, my brother involved in this agency as he retired from the government services and he served same way he did in past. Guess what , he lost his investment ( about 10 lakh) because he could not do the things they were doing. He could not capitalized those poor people who are in hope of going out and making money. Even not sure he or she will be going still with false hope they collected money for fee and services. If that way we provide services and make money it is nothing but worst than corruption. I am not saying  your neighbor was doing that but most employment agency minted money that way.

Bhojpure and Pire,

Nepal does not exist in a vaccuum. We have businessmen coming from other nations, like many Marwaris, who don't seem to have much scruples in bribing or doing whatever to get an advantage in the market. And I don't want to simply point at Marwaris, because now many business houses seem to be employing similar tactics.

My question is: considering the disadvantage that Nepal has in terms of resources, geography (location), infrastructure, economic status etc, can businessmen, bureaucrats and political leaders afford to be good and honest?
I know this is a difficult question to ask. And I also know that it seems dangerous that I am asking this question at all. The danger is that people may justify their corruption because, well, यस्तै हो सबै जानाले गरी रहेको छ excuse.

I know that common people like you and I are inclined to adamantly say 'yes' there should no excuses like that because it is what is expected from the "educated." But let us take a step back from making a gut response. Why would we step back? Because perhaps if we step back, we can better understand where these businessmen, bureaucrats and politicians are coming from. I think it is too easy for us to just demonize these 'ghusias.' How is it that many of these people who find themselves in those roles become corrupt? I mean if corruption starts becoming the norm in a society, as it is in Nepal, I don't think the solution is to increase our demonization. That just increases cynicism. And you have to admit, I think there is enough cynicism in Nepal to the point that people tend to blow off any thing that seems moderately positive.

Someone defined insanity as doing the same things and expecting different results. So maybe its time to actually step back and be more sympathetic to these people that we tend to simply demonize and spit at. I wonder if there are severe challenges to being a businessman, bureacrat or politician in a challenged nation like Nepal that many of us living in America do not fully appreciate. And maybe if we actually understand where they are coming from, we would come one step closer to influencing them in a more positive way than just dismissing them as 'corrupt ghusias.'

Your thoughts?

Bhojpure,

Pire,

Can you please explain more in detail about what you mean by "schooled approach to doing business" and what you mean by being "educated?" And also why you feel that doing those two things would help Nepal. Thanks.

I think people needs to understand private sector corruption is different than the government related corruption. The number of people effected and the ethical standards are very different.
Think you can get away with corruption doing government job in the US? Chances are very slim, unlike Nepal.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/21/california.bell.arrests/index.html

Rewire,

I understand what you are trying to say, and I partially concur with it. But isoalte examples are not going to prove anything. I can just give you an example from Nepali press-- A Member of parliament was arrested and he lost his MP position yesterday for taking bribe.

Homeyji,

When I said "Schooled Approach", I should have  been clearer. What people lack in Nepal is an integrated vision of what they are doing. For example, when I talk to leadership, lots of them are trying to do things that will benefit society and  bring good name to them, but then they have no structured approach in their pursuit and they generally don't know where they and their work fit in the larger context. Works and initiatives die out as they retire or leave the public office, since even when they were honest and meant good, they didn't train their successors to adopt their mindset. Good leaders of different ministries often ignore the oppositions who , when they went to run the ministries, started things from the start or ignored the past initiatives partially because they were not privy to the previous initiatives and their assumed trajectory to achieve their goal . To see the proof of such "orphaned" projects, one can just go to Singha Durbar, Yojana Ayog, and see that the departments are littered with good, but dead, initiatives.

"Educated Men", like those who could have earned a lot abroad and lived in luxury, upon joining government sector could

(i) pursue the corrupt officers

(ii) leave better and well identified legacy, whether in terms of setting up an institute or starting an institutional approach that endures as they retire

(iii) should have no issue with money as they voluntarily left the foreign countries to work for government sector

rather than indulging in nebulous phraseologies of current leadership and an overall confused, even when well meaning, approach. They also would, presumably, not hesitate to send the corrupt men to jail. They will also put their "principle" ahead of everything else, because it is not the principle itself that they care but the goal to attain which they would think the principle to be inviolable.

 

Pire,

I know you are well intentioned. But don't you think you sound too idealistic?

I think that our main complaint about leaders, whether they are political, business or in the bureacracy is that they are not willing to sacrifice for the sake of 'love of the nation.' We the Nepalese people feel like we can demand that these leaders *should* sacrifice their self interest for the sake of the nation. We feel adamantly that sacrifice for the sake of the nation is an unquestionable belief for every Nepali but especially the leadership. We feel that any type of leader in Nepal should not only choose to be a leader if he/she can meet our standard but should voluntarily abdicate his position of leadership if he is not willing to abide by *our standards.* Our standards (the people's standards) is that only those Nepalis who are willing to sacrifice for the nation should become a leader.

Unfortunately, most of the people that become leaders in Nepal don't give a damn about our standards. It seems that for them, the incentive of loving the nation has a very low ROI (return on investment) compared to pretending to have the nation's interest in mind...while looking out for their own. It seems that many of the leaders feel that Nepal has a very little to give to them. So it seems that sooner or later in their political life they become more interested in being able to survive untill the next election rather than sacrifice their political careers like a suicide-bomber, for the sake of the good of the nation. It seems that many of the leaders feel that no one is really looking out for them. So why should they put themselves on the line for everyone else? We have all managed to justify our own excuses. The more educated you are the more sophisticated your justification.

So in this way, all us Nepalis people are pointing to some one else. We are all pointing at someone else who we feel should sacrifice ahead of us. Even on sajha forum I have read postings where people are saying, "Don't ask me to go back to Nepal and do something. The educated and qualified people should go back to Nepal first. They should rescue Nepal and then the rest of us will go back to Nepal when everything is honky dory."

Many of us are all standing on this island called America and Nepal is looking like the Titanic that is sinking. It is a ship that is going down fast. And all of us in America are looking at this slowly sinking ship from the safety of standing on the solid ground of the American island. And we are telling each other, "Hey, you are more qualified to be captain of that sinking ship than I am. I don't have any skills that will help Nepal. So I think you should go to Nepal. Look at me, I am not that intelligent, educated, dedicated, etc. So please, you do something. I will fully support you with heart, mind and spirit. Why don't you do something?"

Homeyji,

Pire,

You are right that since 1950 Nepal has developed a lot. But the world has developed a lot too.

Compared to where Nepal was in 1950 in relation to the world, do you feel that Nepal is in a better position in relation to the world or in a worse condition in relation to how the rest of the world has developed?

I don't see people who left the Titanic, Nepal, as rats. I more see them as the rich/educated passengers aboard the Titanic who used their influence to get out of the ship before the poor passengers could (which is what happened aboard the real Titanic). I basically see that those who could afford to escape the ship, did. And many of us, now that we are safe on the island, we are looking back at the Titanic and cursing the captains and the crew for their horrible navigation and leadership. After all, it was their negligence that caused the Titanic ship called Nepal to hit all these political and economic icebergs. We could all have been enjoying the wonderful parties and social activities and fun aboard the Titanic called Nepal. Instead, here we are stranded aboard the island called America where we are trying to figure out how to make peace among the wild and uncultured aboriginal natives aboard this island who don't speak our language. Many of the poor passengers aboard the Nepali Titanic were living in squalid condtions in cramped quarters and low quality food. Many of them, now that they are aboard the island, are actually finding that their condition is better on the American island than it was aboard the ship. The rich passengers aboard the Nepali Titanic feel quite torn. They remember the good times they had aboard the Nepali Titanic and wish life was still the same. Many of these passengers feel trapped on this American island and wish that they could be aboard the Titanic again...enjoying those good old days. But alas, looking through their telescopes the Nepalis aboard the American island can see that the condition of the Nepali Titanic continues to deteriorate and more people are abandoning ship to come to the American island.

Surrounded and overwhelmed by the strange customs and practices of the abroginal natives on this exotic American island, both the rich and poor who were on the Nepali Titanic are finding a certain kinship to each other on the American island that they did not have when they were aboard the Titanic. They find themselves drawn to each other with a commonality of culture that they wouldn't have shared if they had remained aboard the Titanic.

 I got carried away with the analogy. Pire, is my analogy convincing you yet?

Listen to this quwali in full and send to those who are after money and
post.My experience with Nepalis living in North America who run tow
social non profit organization and who spent much of time scolding
Girija for his lust for post will follow soon if i feel energetic

Homeyji,