(These two pieces were parts of a heated discussion on corruption in Nepal at 'Nepal Democracy' Google Group, which is, as some of you know, is a closed club of self-styled pro-democracy activists. So the discussion is not available publicly.)
Nepe's theory on corruption:
1. I think, corruption is a default state of any society. So looking for sources of corruption is absurd. (see ? I told you, I have strange theories !)
2. Corruption is something that gets manifested. It is not something that gets originated.
3. A discussion on corruption make sense only in the context of how to prevent it. In everything else, it is absurd.
4. Since corruption does not have a source (it is omnipresent), prevention of corruption is essentially defining/determining it and placing punitive measures.
5. Defining/determining corruption needs- this is second strange theory of mine- a 'point of beginning'. Of course it needs brain and will power too. However, they can do nothing if a 'point of beginning' is not available.
6. The above is where went wrong in Nepal. Any time during the earlier years after 1990 could/should have been a 'point of beginning'. That did not happen. A continuum of pre-1990 was maintained after 1990. This is where the problem lies and therefore where the answer lies as well.
7. A 'point of beginning' is basically a point of total freedom to define corruption.
8. Give Nepal a point of beginning. That's the only way. There is no other way to find cure to existing corruptions.
9. Do not worry about newer corruptions. Because it is pointless. The measure you place to cure the existing corruptions will take care of the newer corruptions.
10. So, the answer to Nepal's corruption is to have a point of total freedom to define corruptions, place punitive measures and let the land of the law become the monarch.
The rest will be taken care of by vibrant civil society and full democracy we expect to have in near future. If something still gets leaked--and leaked they will-- we will have to learn to live with that, re-defining them as acceptable corruptions, if needed.
*** *** *** *** *** ***
Nepe's roadmap to clean Nepal:
Corruption in Nepal is so extensive and rooted, some patch work is not going to take care of it. I think we need to think it in terms of a road map just like the one for democracy.
I do have a road map for taking care of corruption in Nepal. Once again the major part of it is really strange.
Without further ado, let me put down my road map to fight corruption in Nepal. It has three steps. I have already described the step one in some way.
STEP 1: A POINT OF BEGINNING
As I explained earlier, this is basically an understanding of total power (call it a full democracy, supremacy of the law, republic or whatever). An all powerful state forms an all powerful anti-graft body. CIAA is already there. So basically, making it all powerful and resourceful is what is needed.
STEP 2: RECONCILIATION PERIOD
Actually, I don't know what name to give to it. However, the idea is to give a very liberal opportunity to all defaulters (of all time, all type and all ranks) to voluntarily submit to CIAA what they have benefited. It is logistically a very complicated issue indeed. However, the idea is an opportunity for a voluntary reconciliation with hope that most of the defaulters will take this opportunity and very little will be left for CIAA to go after. Let's say, CIAA announces a 6 months period for this. Those who will submit during this period will not be taken further action against, except for checking authenticity of the claims if CIAA feels so.
STEP 3. NEW ERA OF ZERO TOLERANCE
This commences immediately after the Reconciliation period is over. Zero tolerance explains it all. Politically this period might look like a semi-authoritarian statehood (Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore !). I do not know how politically incorrect I might sound, but if a strict implementation of the rule of law is what that is, then so be it.
So, this is it. The roadmap to a clean Nepal. It is needless to say that this roadmap is only possible in a full democracy. Compromise, negotiated settlement, hyan-tyan have are no alley to this road.
"'Nepal Democracy' Google Group, which is, as some of you know, is a closed club of self-styled pro-democracy activists. So the discussion is not available publicly."
I just love the acute irony when
"self-styled pro-democracy activists" end up having, ahem, "a closed club" in the name of holding presumably heated pro-democracy discussions that are "not available publicly."
Even more acute irony? All those discuisisons takes place on Google, which is devoted to making the world's information freely available to all.
What kind of bull-shit is this? Did you finally lose your mind? A professor of mine once told me...if you don't know what you are talking about, confuse everybody ;)
Out of topic? I have no idea what this thread is about. But thought of sharing this video anyway.
Here's Nepe reciting a ghazal at NY public meeting with Krishna Pahadi on Nov 6th, 2005, organized by Alliance for Democracy & Human Rights in Nepal, USA (ADHRN, USA)
Nepe, have a point here; somewhere, somehow, someone, sometime have to initiate it, another theory to add to the roadmap discussion, come up with an alternative to it, let us discuss it.
An old Chinese saying goes; "Those who can't dream to take the journey should not stop someone trying it" Nepeji, in addition I suggest tier system of corruption criterization and mandatory punishment for grave cases, lenient though on self revealing.
How much money does Nepali king earn? Dear Nepali citizens and foreign lovers of Nepal, You might be wondering why Nepal is still poor when its countries of equal economic status has reached the sky with booming economic development. Let me try to answer this is one of the reason, I have recently found.
Nepal is one of the poorest counries of the world but Nepal's king is the highest paid king of the world.
The income of Nepali king Gyanendra Bir Bikram Shah Dev is : 2,426 times higher than that of Chinese president 318 times higher than that of Indian president 301 times higher than that of Pakistani president 173 times higher than that of Russian president 57 times higher than that of French president 15 times higher than that of British president 10 times higher than that of American president
Netherlands queen's income : Rs. 22,32,00,000? (per capita income Rs 17,25,120 ) American president earns Rs. 3,24,00,000 (1,15,20,000 returns in tax), (per capita income Rs 25,24,320) Japanese king earns Rs. 22,23,52,000 (per capita income Rs.24,15,600) Chinese president earns Rs. 1,35,000 (per capita income Rs 67,680) Indian president earns Rs. 10,11,000 (per capita income Rs 34,560) French president earns Rs 57,96,000 (per capita income Rs 15,84,000) Pakistani president earns (after the coup) Rs 10,94,000 (per capita income 29,520) British Queen does not get any salary from the state. She has a property of Rs 30,24,00,00,000 (the profit of investiment, after paying the tax, is hers) but even her neckless is the property of the country. British president earns Rs 2,19,58,000 (per capita income is Rs 18,16,200) Russian president earns Rs 19,03,000 (per capita income is Rs 1,54,000) Belgean king receives salary as a civil servant (per capita income is Rs 16,74,000) And, Nepali king earns Rs 61,91,00,000 (per capita income is Rs 16,560=US$ 230) [This means the Nepali king earns Rs. 19,878 times higher than a citizen. Last year it was 37,385 times higher. Thus a citizen can earn as much as the king earns in a year only after working for 19,000 years or in 316 lives. Ho la!]
Appendix Nepali royal family is involved in various business. A king does not have to pay tax according to Nepal's constitution. The present king has inherited the property of earlier king's family and nobody knows how much it is. This king has taken Rs 1,06,45,00,000 in past three years for his small family
Courtsey: Surya Thapa, Mulyankan Monthly (Nov-Dec 2005) US dollar 1 = Rs 72 Nepal has a writing system of giving comma after two digits except the last.
REQUEST PEASE PRINT THIS AND PASTE IT ON THE NOTICE BOARD OF YOUR OFFICE. THIS WILL GIVE ANSWER TO THE QUEST WHY? NEPAL IS ALWAYS SO POOR. PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS PAGE TO YOUR FRIEND YOU WILL NOT GET ANY FORTUNE BUT WILL CERTAINLY OPEN THEIR EYES.
त्यो "नेपाल डेमोक्रेसी" भन्ने गुगलान गामको गुप्तेश्वर ओडारको कुरा नि- मैले पनि त्यँहा हेरेको छु र मेरो impression चाँहि त्यँहाको गफगाफ निकै नै स्तरिय र परिणाम-मुखी खालको छ, कुनै सार्वजनिक भतेरमा जस्तो जे मन लाग्यो त्यही गफ गरेर 'टाईम पास" गर्ने खालको पटक्कै छैन ।
हामीले घर पनि बनाउँछौ, जग्गा पनि बेर-बार गरेरै राख्छौ । भनेको, आफू पनि एउटा अनुशासनमा बस्दा, sanctuary मा बस्दा अरुले पनि त्यसको सम्मान गरेको देख्न चाहन्छौँ। A bit of fencework is always needed to keep the animals off. अब राजनीति र सिद्धान्तका कुरा गर्नी ठाममा एउटा कामासुर आएर नाङ्गै नाच्ला, अर्को असभ्य आएर पारस-स्तुति गाउन थाल्ला । भने पछि ती कुजातहरुबाट आफ्नो "डिफेन्स" गर्ने "ईनर्जी" पनि राम्रो राम्रो असल असल विचार मन्थनमै लगाउन पाईयोस भनेर कसैले गुप्तेश्वर महादेवको पुजारी बन्छु भन्छ भने अरुले गाह्रो मान्नु पर्ने सान्दर्भिकता देख्दिन है मैले त । मन लाग्छ, उनीहरुसित सहमत छौँ भने गएर त्यही बथानमा हुलिदेउ मलाई पनि भनेर भने भयो, होईन भने रीसै उठ्छ भने आफूले पनि त्यसरी नै अर्को गुप्तेश्वरको मठ खोले भयो । उनीहरुले त्यसो गरेको कसैले पचाउन सक्दैन भने मलाई चाहि के लाग्छ भने त्यस्तो भन्नेको नै नीयत सफा छैन, उसले त्यँहा वा तिनीहरुको तौर-तरिकामा केही बिगार पु-याउने ईच्छा राख्दछ ।
मन सफा छ, आत्म-अनुशासन भन्ने कुराको अर्थ थाहा छ र त्यँहा जाने ईच्छा छ भने मेरो बिचारमा त्यँहा सबैलाई हार्दिक स्वागत छ है ।
If you visited group, then I guess you are a member of the group, ki kaso. No wonder you are defending them narrowminded, closed group of democrat people...
भ्रस्टाचार निवारण सम्बन्धी गफ गर्नलाई गोप्य कोठा खोज्दै हिँड्नुपर्छ त नि भ्रस्टाछार गर्न पो गोप्य कोठा खोज्दै हिँड्नु, अनि फेरि आफुलाई प्रजातान्त्रिक भन्ने। के हो के हो।
pire जी, यो चाँहि साह्रै सटिक गयो है, मुटु नै छुने गरी ," democrats tharitharika..", म त नतमस्तक, के भनुम खै ।
मेरो एउटा आग्रह चाँहि के भने ND ले कुनै सार्वजनिक चुनाव उठेको पनि होईन, कुनै वाचा गरेको पनि छैन, कुनै mandate सार्वजनिक तरिकाबाट promise गरेको पनि छैन र हामीले यस्तो ग-यौँ, उस्तो ग-यौँ भनेर बाटा-घाटा फुक्दै छाती पिट्दै हिँड्ने पनि होईन ।
यति भैसके पछि आपसमा मन मिल्ने नेपाली वा नेपाली प्रति सदिच्छा राख्नेहरु, group of like-minded people भनुम् न, ले हामी-हामी विचार-मन्थन गरौँ, एकको ज्ञानले अर्कोलाई परिष्कृत गरौँ भनेर सरसल्लाह गर्छन भने फेरि तपाईँकै लवजमा "अर्को थरिको डेमोक्र्याट" ले किन टाउको दुखाउन प-यो र? सहमत भए उनीहरुलाई नै "ज्वाईन" गरे भई हाल्यो, होईन भने आफूले पनि त्यस्तै खोलेर, सकिन्छ भने सार्वजनिक नै खोलेर उनीहरुको भन्दा अझ सफल बनाईदिए त तिनिहरुको सेखि झरिहाल्छ नि । Democratic norms भनेको त तेस्तो हुनु पर्ने हो जस्तो मान्छु है म । मैले बुझे अनुसार पूर्णत: खुल्ला नभएको कारण नै त्यही हो जुन यही थ्रेडमा नै देखिदैँछ, बाहिर त यस्तो टोकाटोक हुन्छ भने त्यो ठाउँ पुरै खुल्ला भए केही "ईनर्जी" त आफ्नो वचावटमै खर्च गर्न पर्ने हुन जान्छ । र अति नै सँक्रमण हुन थाल्यो भने त्यस्ता खास उद्देश्यको लागि बनाईएको ठाउँको उद्देश्यकै sanctity मै असर पर्छ सक्छ कि त? त्यसरी त यही साझामा नै हामी छलफल गर्दै नै छौँ नि, भनेसि यस्तो खुल्ला वातावरणको लागि त साझा नै जिन्दाबाद, किन अर्को चाहियो र ?
तर त्यसो भन्दैमा फेरि सोमहरु गफै मात्रै गर्ने चाहि होईनन् कि जस्तो लाग्छ है कहिलेकाही, मैले सुने जाने अनुसार के । केही केही काम-कुरा शायद उनीहरुको कोशिसले dispense भै सकेको पनि छ अरे । तर यो कुरो मैले आफ्नै capacity मा भन्दै छु, फेरि माथि यसो गरेँ र उसो गरेँ भनेर छाति पिट्दिन भन्छन, पछि लास्टाँ फेरि के के गरिसके, अझ के के गर्ने वाला होलान् भन्छ, यो त झन paradoxical भयो भन्नुहोला । यो मैले नै सुनेको अनुसार भनेको, ND सँग मेरो यो भनाईको केही पनि लेनादेना छैन । र ND को बिरोध, आलोचना पनि जति पनि गर्न पाईन्छ, धक फुकाएरै गाली गर्नु भए हुन्छ, सुन्नेले सुन्लान नि त ।
बरु त्यस्तै "थरिथरिका..." जस्तै मीठो अरु अरु पनि जाँदै गरोस है ।
pire जी, यो चाँहि साह्रै सटिक गयो है, मुटु नै छुने गरी ," democrats tharitharika..", म त नतमस्तक, के भनुम खै ।
मेरो एउटा आग्रह चाँहि के भने ND ले कुनै सार्वजनिक चुनाव उठेको पनि होईन, कुनै वाचा गरेको पनि छैन, कुनै mandate सार्वजनिक तरिकाबाट promise गरेको पनि छैन र हामीले यस्तो ग-यौँ, उस्तो ग-यौँ भनेर बाटा-घाटा फुक्दै छाती पिट्दै हिँड्ने पनि होईन ।
यति भैसके पछि आपसमा मन मिल्ने नेपाली वा नेपाली प्रति सदिच्छा राख्नेहरु, group of like-minded people भनुम् न, ले हामी-हामी विचार-मन्थन गरौँ, एकको ज्ञानले अर्कोलाई परिष्कृत गरौँ भनेर सरसल्लाह गर्छन भने फेरि तपाईँकै लवजमा "अर्को थरिको डेमोक्र्याट" ले किन टाउको दुखाउन प-यो र? सहमत भए उनीहरुलाई नै "ज्वाईन" गरे भई हाल्यो, होईन भने आफूले पनि त्यस्तै खोलेर, सकिन्छ भने सार्वजनिक नै खोलेर उनीहरुको भन्दा अझ सफल बनाईदिए त तिनिहरुको सेखि झरिहाल्छ नि । Democratic norms भनेको त तेस्तो हुनु पर्ने हो जस्तो मान्छु है म । मैले बुझे अनुसार पूर्णत: खुल्ला नभएको कारण नै त्यही हो जुन यही थ्रेडमा नै देखिदैँछ, बाहिर त यस्तो टोकाटोक हुन्छ भने त्यो ठाउँ पुरै खुल्ला भए केही "ईनर्जी" त आफ्नो वचावटमै खर्च गर्न पर्ने हुन जान्छ । र अति नै सँक्रमण हुन थाल्यो भने त्यस्ता खास उद्देश्यको लागि बनाईएको ठाउँको उद्देश्यकै sanctity मै असर पर्छ सक्छ कि त? त्यसरी त यही साझामा नै हामी छलफल गर्दै नै छौँ नि, भनेसि यस्तो खुल्ला वातावरणको लागि त साझा नै जिन्दाबाद, किन अर्को चाहियो र ?
तर त्यसो भन्दैमा फेरि सोमहरु गफै मात्रै गर्ने चाहि होईनन् कि जस्तो लाग्छ है कहिलेकाही, मैले सुने जाने अनुसार के । केही केही काम-कुरा शायद उनीहरुको कोशिसले dispense भै सकेको पनि छ अरे । तर यो कुरो मैले आफ्नै capacity मा भन्दै छु, फेरि माथि यसो गरेँ र उसो गरेँ भनेर छाति पिट्दिन भन्छन, पछि लास्टाँ फेरि के के गरिसके, अझ के के गर्ने वाला होलान् भन्छ, यो त झन paradoxical भयो भन्नुहोला । यो मैले नै सुनेको अनुसार भनेको, ND सँग मेरो यो भनाईको केही पनि लेनादेना छैन । र ND को बिरोध, आलोचना पनि जति पनि गर्न पाईन्छ, धक फुकाएरै गाली गर्नु भए हुन्छ, सुन्नेले सुन्लान नि त ।
बरु त्यस्तै "थरिथरिका..." जस्तै मीठो अरु अरु पनि जाँदै गरोस है ।
कुरै कुरामा नेपे दाईलाई (+ अरु interested साथीहरुलाई पनि) मेरो एउटा प्रश्न नि,
तपाईँ (१) गोबिन्द राज जोशी (२) मोदनाथ प्रश्रित (३) खुम बहादुर खड्का र (४) केशव स्थापित
[ (५) मा बामदेव गौतम भनुँ झै लागेको थियो, लिस्ट नि निकै लामो हुने भयो र खुम बहादुर को नामले more-or-less बामदेवको characteristics नि सबै reflect गर्ने हुनाले बन्द गरेँ ।]
मा को-को लाई भ्रष्टाचारी मान्नु हुन्छ ? र जो जो लाई मान्नु हुन्छ वा मान्नु हुन्न, के कति कारणले मान्नु हुन्छ वा मान्नु हुन्न त? (पत्र-पत्रिकामा आएका साथै ब्यक्तिगत साथै श्रुतिस्मृति सबै source लाई आधार मानौँ ) । मैले यी नाम किन लिएको भने (भ्रष्ट + आचार ) भने पछि अनैतिक पैसा सँगाल्ने मात्रै होईन, धूर्तता, पाखण्ड, जनतालाई ठग्ने र मूर्गा बनाउने खेल, शक्तिको खेल, बाँकी तिगडम (आफ्नो वा जनताको वा पार्टीको भलाईको लागि समर्पित) अनेक कुरा पर्छन र माथिका नामले, मेरो reading मा नि, नाम मात्रै होईन कि नेपालमा हावी भ्रष्ट प्रवृत्तिलाई जसोतसो aggregate गर्न मिल्छ होला, schools of corrupt thoughts भनुम् न त ।
अनि तिनीहरुको लागि सजाँय वा तपाईँले भने जस्तो amnesty समेत के के जाति प्रक्रियामा को को कहाँ कहाँ पर्छन?
उत्तर आँशिक वा बिस्तारै दिनु भए पनि हुन्छ, नेपाली-अँग्रेजी जे मा भए पनि ।त्यसपछि मैले तपाईँको भ्रष्टाचार सम्बन्धी धारणामा आफ्नो धारणा बनाउँला ।
"मैले बुझे अनुसार पूर्णत: खुल्ला नभएको कारण नै त्यही हो जुन यही थ्रेडमा नै देखिदैँछ, बाहिर त यस्तो टोकाटोक हुन्छ भने त्यो ठाउँ पुरै खुल्ला भए केही "ईनर्जी" त आफ्नो वचावटमै खर्च गर्न पर्ने हुन जान्छ । र अति नै सँक्रमण हुन थाल्यो भने त्यस्ता खास उद्देश्यको लागि बनाईएको ठाउँको उद्देश्यकै sanctity मै असर पर्छ सक्छ कि त?"
This is a dangerous argument for any self-styled democrat to make.
Why? Because even the non-democrats will use this very same argument to justify their every move.
Democracy IS, after all, पुरै खुल्ला all the time. Democracy IS, after all, पुरै खुल्ला all the time.
That's what democracy is.
Democracy is NOT hanging out with "like-minded people", and wah-wahing one another's deep thoughts.
Democracy is accepting that it's OK to hang out with people whose guts you passionately hate without trading blows with them.
That said, Nepe wrote about there being "a heated discussion on corruption in Nepal". If so, is it not then curiously self-serving on his part to peddle ONLY his view here, while NOT posting others' views from that CLOSED forum? Why call something a heated discussion, and then present only one side of that discussion?
The point is: Democracy, openness and transparency are the BEST disinfectants for any PUBLIC discussion. True, some agenda might be hijacked by some people some of the time. But the price of democracy is NOT enclosure of like-minded people so that they can wallow in some closed, antiseptic experience.
The price of democracy is eternal vigilance to learn how to deal (and NOT avoid) the thari-thari ka kich-kich that comes with the part and parcel of democracy.
Hare yo google group le ni ganru garyo....... Even though I do understand the purpose of that place and everything in between, but if announced and given link then it shouldnt have the ''NO ENTRY'' sign.. Otherwise it should not be mentioned at all. Hare pravu....jhun place ma public no entry cha that place ko name mention garnu not a wise decision. Secret means secret shouldnt be mentioned anywhere.... No wonder people have something to point concerning this word democracy, no matter even if stupid.
I agree with your notion of democracy being पुरै खुल्ला . And I admiringly appreciate your style of learning-by-arguing and play the "devil's advocate" so that the concepts get better tuned. BTW, that's also how they enrich Uranium ;)
To the question at hand, however, that is the kind of democracy as in "rule of the people...". ND is not trying to rule, it is not fighting for any election/post neither is it promising you this and that. The question here is "they are not invading your space, in that context do you have any problem respecting their own space?" I believe in the name of transparency, you are not asking others to strip off in public. And my argument is that ND is not making you any promises, its not begging for expansion neither it is pleading for anyone to join in. Like-minded people do have a right to club/hang-out together and do or discuss things of common interest, and thats exactly what they are doing.
And it is activism, not pure 'raajniti'. Just to remind you of one event, two days ago, GREENPEACE, a pioneer environmental activist group, laid out the corpse of a Mianke Whale in front of the Japanese Embassy in Germany to protest the insanely hypocritic 'research'-killing of whales by the Japs. [just a bit off the course plz: the corpse of the whale is still there, all stinking and disturbing and when the Japs approached the local police and the authorities, they were replied that because there was no imminent threat to the Embassy, and that the Greenpeace will move it anyway after three days, the Japs will NOT be helped. :-) ] They had acquired the whale by lying to the authorities that they would cover the costs of transportation and effective disposal and that they had such type of expertise and bla bla when the whale had gotten stranded and died somewhere else. Had they gone transparently public, they would have never succeeded in doing so. I raised this example to exemplify that activism does not necessarily have to embrace all Jack and Jill who come across the street. That said, a 'self-acclaimed democrat' would rather leave ND where it is unless ND itself interferes 'undemocratically' into his/her way.
Whatsoever, I would also prefer that the discussions be given the '774' Linux-style permissions [read+write+execute to the owner+group, read to the world]
बरु नेपालको भ्रष्टाचारको बारेमा नि कुरा गरम न, त्यो पो त डरलाग्दो चीज त ।
and it begins - on Day 1 Trump will begin operations to deport millions of undocumented immigrants
ढ्याउ गर्दा दसैँको खसी गनाउच
To Sajha admin
Travel Document for TPS (approved)
All the Qatar ailines from Nepal canceled to USA
NOTE: The opinions
here represent the opinions of the individual posters, and not of Sajha.com.
It is not possible for sajha.com to monitor all the postings, since sajha.com merely seeks to provide a cyber location for discussing ideas and concerns related to Nepal and the Nepalis. Please send an email to admin@sajha.com using a valid email address
if you want any posting to be considered for deletion. Your request will be
handled on a one to one basis. Sajha.com is a service please don't abuse it.
- Thanks.
