[Show all top banners]

Samsara
Replies to this thread:

More by Samsara
What people are reading
Subscribers
:: Subscribe
Back to: Kurakani General Refresh page to view new replies
 US Economy: A Downward Spiral?

[Please view other pages to see the rest of the postings. Total posts: 63]
PAGE:   1 2 3 4 NEXT PAGE
[VIEWED 29245 TIMES]
SAVE! for ease of future access.
The postings in this thread span 4 pages, View Last 20 replies.
Posted on 07-28-08 8:48 AM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     2       ?     Liked by
 

 

Got this from a Financial Blogger I subscribe to.  Some pretty good analysis and recommendations for those wanting to play Banking stocks and the US Dollar.  Grim news in general...Could Washington Mutual be next??  Man, when will this mess end!

BTW, check out his recommendations as some of his insights are exactly what I've been feeling for the past few weeks.

 

MONEYANDMARKETS»


Monday, July 28, 2008

YOUR BEST SOURCE FOR THE UNBIASED MARKET COMMENTARY YOU WON'T GET FROM WALL STREET
[«] Money and Markets 2008 Archive View This Issue On Our Website [»]
Unthinkable Truth; Undeniable Reality
by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D.

Dear Subscriber,

Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D.

The truth may be unthinkable, but the reality is undeniable:

Much of our nation's financial structure is collapsing, and our government's only response is phony money, bogus bailouts and a litany of false promises.

Ben Bernanke, Henry Paulson, the FDIC and the U.S. Congress say they can do it all.

They say they can save bankrupt brokers like Bear Stearns ... take over recently failed banks like IndyMac Bank and First National of Nevada ... prop up insolvent mortgage giants like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ... refinance millions of defaulting mortgages ... dish out hundreds of billions in tax rebates ... and still have enough cash in the kitty to cover the next round of financial collapses.

They say their unbridled money printing won't devalue the U.S. dollar.

They say their unlimited pledge to guarantee junk mortgage bonds won't sabotage the credit of the U.S. Treasury.

They say their blank checks to private companies won't rip off U.S. taxpayers.

They'd have you believe they can outlaw the cycle of boom and bust ... repeal the law of supply and demand ... even freeze the march of time.

In the real world, of course, no government in history has ever been able to do anything of the kind, and they know it.

In the real world, their "solution" is part of the problem, and they know that too.

They know that wealth is generated from work — not from the paper money they're printing. They understand the hazards of indulging the most daring debtors and rescuing the most reckless risk-takers.

They know darn well the fatal flaws of the course they've chosen. But they proceed to pursue it anyhow.

Why? Because, behind the façade of their feel-good happy talk and beneath the thin veneer of their Pollyanna optimism, nearly every single one of our leaders — including Bernanke and Paulson, Democrats and Republicans — is really a gloom-and-doom pessimist in disguise.

They are pessimists inasmuch as they have little faith in America's ability to confront hard times. They greatly underestimate our ability to cope and adapt. They think we can't handle the truth.

I disagree. In the Great Depression, our parents and grandparents faced the unthinkable truth and created a stronger country as a result. They confronted the truth again during World War II and helped create a better world in its aftermath.

I believe we can do that too. We have the resources. We have the knowledge. And we have the added benefit of hindsight. But before we move forward, we must admit five irrefutable facts:

Irrefutable fact #1: Ours is a debt-addicted society,and weeding out the bad debts is the first step toward true recovery.

Irrefutable fact #2: By far the biggest pile-up of debts is in mortgages — $14.7 trillion, according to the Federal Reserve's latest Flow of Funds report (see PDF page 64, Table L.4, line 9).

Irrefutable fact #3: Among those mortgages, a quarter to a third could go bad: Their terms are high risk for both borrower and lender. Their collateral is shaky. Most should never have been created in the first place.

Irrefutable fact #4: When bad debts go into default, there is no free lunch. Somebody has to pay the price. The only question is: Who?

Irrefutable fact #5: The overwhelming bulk of the bad mortgages were created to help Americans move into homes that were priced far above their means. But the only way to correct this problem is to let natural market forces drive home prices back down to much lower levels.

Do most of our leaders have the wisdom and moral fiber to confess to these truths? Not yet. But in the not-too-distant future, they will have no other choice.

Reason: America's housing marketplace is bigger than any government; its power, greater than any law. It is the single largest asset class in the world. It packs the most powerful forces of supply and demand ever assembled in history.

And right now, it's tearing down some of our nation's largest banks. Two examples ...

Washington Mutual
In a Death Spiral?

Washington Mutual, America's largest savings and loan, is unfortunately, also one of the nation's largest subprime lenders.

A direct consequence: It appears to be in a death spiral, losing $3.3 billion in the second quarter ... admitting to losses of as much as $19 billion this year ... and probably on its way to losses of an estimated $26 billion.

That estimated loss is over four times its total market value as of Friday's close ... twelve times its yearly earnings in the best of times.

Can it get a new capital infusion to stave off failure?

Perhaps. But on April 8, Washington Mutual already got an injection of $7 billion from private equity firm TPG Capital. And now, less than five months later, an amount equivalent to TPG's entire investment has been more than wiped out with the plunge in Washington Mutual's shares — to a meager $3.82 on Friday.

What's worse, the TPG deal restricts Washington Mutual's ability to raise new, desperately needed capital going forward. And further impairing its ability to raise capital, Moody's announced that it is reviewing the thrift for a downgrade to junk status.

Here's the big problem: As of the latest reckoning, Washington Mutual has $214.6 billion in residential mortgages on its books. And among those, more than three-quarters are in non-traditional categories — option ARMs, subprime loans, home equity loans and multi-family mortgages. Less than one-quarter is of the traditional, single-family prime variety.

Washington Mutual: Nonperforming loans surge!

Just in option ARMs alone, Washington Mutual has $52.9 billion, one of the biggest such portfolios in the industry. Moreover, 62.5% of its option ARMs are in two of the hardest hit states — Florida and California.

Nonperforming assets are growing by an average of 36% each quarter. If they continue to grow at that rate, they could reach a whopping 6.7% of total assets by year-end.

Investors are pulling out. Rumors are swirling that creditors may be doing the same. Bankruptcy looms.

Wachovia Also
Suffering Huge Losses

Wachovia, the nation's fourth largest bank with nearly $800 billion in assets, is also in danger. Its staggering $8.9 billion loss reported last week may be just the tip of the iceberg.

Its big blunder: The acquisition of subprime lender Golden West Financial for $24 billion at the very peak of the real estate market in 2006.

The net result for the bank: It's now stuck with option ARMs valued at $122 billion concentrated in California, the state with one of the worst mortgage default rates.

Net result for shareholders: Over $55 billion of their wealth has been wiped out since the acquisition — more than double the total purchase price of Golden West.

The big problem going forward: Wachovia has $231 billion in residential real estate loans on the books. But only 22% of these are classified as "traditional mortgages." Most of the rest are higher risk.

My Recommendations

Recommendation #1. If you haven't done so already, check the safety of your bank.

Yes, your deposits are insured by the FDIC up to $100,000. But there are still risks and inconveniences of getting stuck in a failed bank or thrift.

For example, if your principal is $100,000, your accrued interest could be at risk. And if your account is a business checking account with large uncashed checks outstanding, even though your book balance may be under the $100,000 limit, your actual bank balance may be over the limit. So those funds may also be at risk.

Even with your insured deposits, after a messy failure, there could be a significant delay in regaining access to your money. You will get your $100,000. But don't expect it to happen overnight. To get a free safety rating on your institution, follow these steps:

Step 1. Go to TheStreet.com's Banks & Thrifts Screener.

Step 2. Look for the green box to enter your information. Under "Bank Name," type in only the first word of your institution's name.

Step 3. To the right of your bank or thrift's name, make note of its rating: A is excellent, B is good, C is fair, D is weak and E is very weak.

Step 4. Use these general guidelines:

  • If your bank or thrift is rated B+ or better, we believe it's secure.

  • If its rating is between B- and C-, check it a few times per year to make sure it hasn't fallen below C-.

  • If it's D+ or lower, seriously consider switching to a safer institution, of which there are many to choose from.

Recommendation #2. Also consider moving most of your savings and checking to a Treasury-only money market fund. Treasury-only money funds are not insured by the FDIC. But I think that's a moot point because the investments they buy enjoy the direct guarantee of the United States Treasury, with no $100,000 limitation.

Examples:

Recommendation #3. If you haven't done so already, dump any bank shares that you may own, whether at a profit or a loss. The recent Fed- and SEC-inspired rally was a gift — a last chance to get out at somewhat better prices.

Recommendation #4. Your investments, your business or your income may still be vulnerable to collapsing mortgages and other debts. For protective hedges, check Our Comprehensive List of Inverse ETFs and consult with your advisor or money manager to select the ones that best match your needs.

Good luck and God bless!

Martin





Last edited: 28-Jul-08 08:50 AM

 
Posted on 07-28-08 9:14 AM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

interesting!!!
 
Posted on 07-28-08 9:17 AM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

the economy was already in downward spiral but the war  (and other circumstances) accelerated it.


 
Posted on 07-28-08 11:04 AM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

yes interesting article indeed. however, it doesn't project things much to the future. i know things are not easy to predict in bubble but where is this economic slack leading us to, five years down the road? from the article i get this feeling that the situation is going to get grimmer and grimmer all the way(?). what is the worst it can go? 1USD=10NRS? hahaha...is there going to be some solace somewhere? when shall we expect the break in the trend if there is a possibility for one coz at  this rate, we're gonna get ripped off till our very last chaddi hahahaha.  don't tell me  we have to start  all over again from scratch, that will take forever  hahaha...

throw me some bone here!
 
Posted on 07-28-08 11:13 AM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

Yes, Washington Mutual will soon be the property of JP Morgan Chase. Look at the falling stock prices for the bank and Earning per share is damn negative 9. I was planning to buy stock for this bank when it was about $11 per share couple of years ago. Thank God, I did not. Any way, I hope US economy will soon be blooming again like before and value of Dollar be more than Euro. (I hope so.)

 
Posted on 07-28-08 11:30 AM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

So Samsara ji, When is the best time to buy condo in NY/NJ area? I heard of Massive Layoffs in december -- will that drop the home prices by 30%? They perdict 30% down in realestate nationwide in next March however, Metro NY prices are still steady or going slightly up. I want them to go up incase i dont lose the job in december, i can buy a home. Enlight me my friend!!!
 
Posted on 07-28-08 12:09 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

Yo dawg! what up?

Here is a bone:

U.S. Deficit to Reach Record $490 Billion in 2009 (Update2)

By Roger Runningen

July 28 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. budget deficit will widen to a record of about $490 billion next year, an administration official said, leaving a deep budget hole for the next president.

The projected deficit for the fiscal year that begins Oct. 1 is far higher than the $407 billion forecast by President George W. Bush in February. The official also confirmed a report in USA Today that the deficit this year will be less than the $410 billion estimated in February.

MORE ..

Is this a harbinger of the McCain-Romney dream ticket?




 
Posted on 07-28-08 12:10 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

Thanks Samsara for sharing......"Unthinkable Truth; Undeniable Reality ".

"Buy when everyone else is selling and hold until everyone else is buying. That's not just a catchy slogan. It's the very essence of successful investing." - J. Paul Getty: Money Quotes


 
Posted on 07-28-08 12:32 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

I think we are undeniably in the first steps of the fall of the "American Empire". Next administration will decide how fast the fall will be!

 
Posted on 07-28-08 12:47 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

The bad part is they have the potential of taking down the whole world with them.

 
Posted on 07-28-08 1:04 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

 

u_day, and thats how efficient markets operate...Any sign of blood and we have a shark feeding frenzy where the corp in distress is shredded to a single bite size propotion.

Loote, thanks for showing up here...Your post here has undeniably attracted more hits to my thread.  US$1 = NPR 10?  LOLs  I don't think I'd ever see that day in my lifetime, but for INR to reach 10 against the US$ doesn't seem like a distant faded reality anymore though (don't know if NPR would still be able to keep the 1.6 peg with INR as in terms of basic economics, there is no way we culd still hold that peg rate with the boom in India's economic indicators compared to our stagnant Nepali economy).  If someone were to ask me, I'd say that the whole mess began with the subprime issues and it will end with that.  Once all banks come outta the closet and reveal their real mess, only then can any viable solution be found.  So far, the Fed and the Congress have been applying a band-aid to a cancerous patch and that my friend, is defn not going to work.  Also, the War situation (if the War in Iraq is seen to be prolonged or if we decide to venture into Iran) would defn kill any hopes for an economic revival. 

VG, good call on not buying Wamu shares at $11...If you had, then you'd be weeping in some corner in a fetal position after reading the above article for sure. 

Beltran, as long as the suprime mess is still not over, Financials would keep getting hammered.  The only jobs secure right now are the stock-brokers within IBs.  These cats are mostly paid no or very little salary as a majority of their compensation comes outta the commissions they generate (so its cheaper for the IBs to still have them around and continue raking in their commisions).  Any performance based position will be around for long.  And for the NYC real estate, this will not go down anytime soon.  For the past 2 yrs, real estate nationwide has dropped an average of 20% or more whereas in NYC, it has been down about 4% only.  Why?  Because of the immigrants, tourists and out-of towners who have been driving up the local real estate unlike other parts of the US.  The NY Times had an article last month about how NY Realtys have now begun pricing their properties in terms of Euros and how these Europeans and Brtis (with their new-found excahnge rate wealth) are buying these bargain basement deals in terms of Manhattan prices.  If I were you, I'd go and start my process on buying a condo right now...Remember, its a buyer's market now, so make sure YOU set the terms (financing, etc) and get the sellers to throw in some incentives with the property.

Hyde, a Romney-McCain tkt would be the best bet for the Republicans at this hour.  The economy needs a financial guru and prolly someone in the top brass to have hailed outta Investment Banks (Romney) as the current economic doomsday scenario can be curbed once someone with a deeper understanding into the workings of an IB (its risks, rewards, new-derivative products, etc).  Romney would be well suited for that and McCain should be wise enuff to know that.

BA, you're welcome...I'd be glad to post more grim news anytime it comes along...No wonder they call Economics the "Dismal Science." 

ll  ll, the fall would be brought about the next administration only if these new leaders go on to prolong the current Afganistan and Iraqi occupation.  And moreover, make it a point that all the banks involved in the sub-prime mess come out clean instead of hoodwinking the markets into believing that they are still riding high. 

Bhaley bro, good to see you.  Where have you been these days?  Yeah, exactly, thats the scary part.  America sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold.  Thats how it still is thanks to the dominance of the green-backs ever since the Bretton Woods treaty.  A monopoly of sorts but who has the balls to complain (we'd bomb their azzes back to the stone ages if they dared do that). 

 

Finally, was watching CNBC last week and when Erin Burnett (damn, she's hot as hell) asked one strategist outta UBS as to what he expected the Financial stocks to do, a perfect answer from this idiot: "...I'd buy on the dips and sell on the pops."  HAHAH  How on earth would someone know where the dips end and where the pops reaches its resistance?  HAHHAHA  Vague to the highest degree AND that my friends, is what the markets is right now: Vague and blurred.  Defn, some people are making money trading but overall, I'd advise anyone still long on the Banking Sector to grab your boots and run.  As per the article above, "The recent Fed- and SEC-inspired rally was a gift — a last chance to get out at somewhat better prices."

 

Last edited: 28-Jul-08 01:15 PM

 
Posted on 07-28-08 1:29 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

Sam bro,
I don't mean to be an ass, but I've few Gs on money market from Washington Mutual. If they go down, will I get them back. Since it's less than $100,000, should I worry and go to another bank instead. I'm just saving for a house.
Any info will be appreciated. Thanks.

 
Posted on 07-28-08 1:43 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

what u mean by Money Market ??

money market fund   or    is it money market savings ?

if its savings account most likely it is FDIC insured to $100k...

if its money market fund... no protection... these funds are normally safe but in this market evnironment i would put the money where it is FDIC insured...

 
Posted on 07-28-08 2:01 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

The wheels for the fall was already set into motion my Greenspan more like a couple of decades ago and constantly spun faster by this current administration. I don't think the next administration will be in a position to save U.S. The only question that remains now is "how long?". Bretton Woods will be irrelevant in about a decade. We needn't look far but just across the Atlantic for our savior. Yes, I agree the fall of America might usher in the next dark ages but it will probably be over sooner than lot of us think - maybe another decade.

 
Posted on 07-28-08 2:06 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

A
Samsara
:  Economics a "Dismal Science."

The truth is different. Carlyle called 'economics the dismal science' not because of its pessimism but because he objected to its humanitarian optimism Carlyle did not in fact direct his remarks at Ricardo or Malthus, or even at Adam Smith. He was writing a rebuttal of ideas expressed by John Stewart Mill, whose Principles of Political Economy was published in 1848. Mill had advanced the notion that all peoples on Earth, from all races and colours, were basically the same. Blackmen and women were not born to slavery; they were forced into it. Carlyle absolutely disagreed with Mill's humanistic notion. He expresses in his pamphlet the most offensive justification of slavery, denied explicitly that Africans were of the same species at Europeans (the very idea incensed Carlyle — as it did his friends and colleagues, among whom we find John Ruskin and Charles Dickens), and he lambasted J. S. Mill, an economist and former close friend for claiming the contrary view.

It was the notion that people are equal as human beings that Carlyle found as evidence that economics was the 'dismal science'. This had nothing to do with Malthus, or Riccardo, or Smith (who explicitly agreed (1776) with the humanistic notion, later elaborated by Mill in 1848). Adam Smith's vision of the human condition combined moral sentiments and the advance of democracy, the rule of law and justice with his great hopes that commerce and agriculture would gradually rid the world of poverty and injustice. Most economists, let alone the general public, do not know of Smith's broader humanistic and optimistic vision. They have dumped this part of Smith's legacy for 'homo economicus', which was never part of his legacy. They have used Smith's name to justify the most appalling breaches of human behaviour. Hence, if economics was truly the 'dismal science' asserted by the popular misconception from an entirely different attack on economics by Thomas Carlyle then I would not draw attention to the misconception.

To suggest that the disgraceful origins of the notion of economics as a 'dismal science' had anything to with the contents of economics (the popular misconception), when what Carlyle was criticising was to the lasting credit of Smith and Mill, is a canard that should be corrected and not passed on in a web site addressing educational topics to young people.





 
Posted on 07-28-08 2:43 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

 

mukundo, you say, "Carlyle called 'economics the dismal science' not because of its pessimism but because he objected to its humanitarian optimism "...And what is the difference?  HHAHAH  This is a riot.  ROFL  BTW, this is exactly what I meant when I said that the UBS strategist said, "Buy on the dips, sell on the pops."  He clearly had no idea what he was speaking about but yet said it so confidently on CNBC that only the non-traders really thought he meant what he said.  HAHHA 

Let me correct you into saying that the consensual view of most academicians as to the word "dismal" for economics by Carlyle was his response to the late 18th century writings of The Rev Thomas Robert Malthus, who grimly predicted that starvation would result as projected population growth exceeded the rate of increase in the food supply (you have to understand that it was a time when economists forecasted doomsday scenarios to all:  Another famous one then was that at the rate London was importing horses for its carriages and leisure, within a few decades, London would be filled with horse-dung).  However, the words "dismal science" was used in his article titled, "Occasional Discourse on the Negro Question" .  Though he used dismal science in both scenarios, the latter one being controversial has now been taken too far off context by novice ecnomist who unlike economists delve not deeper but only into the top-soil of this subject.  I'd still stick to whatever came first rather tahn the later works.  With this in mind, if you stand to correct me, then you should have put up the REAL reason (the one that came first) into stating why economics was termed "dismal" otherwise your post above should definitely "not be passed on in a web site addressing educational topics to young people" (your words, not mine).

 


 
Posted on 07-28-08 3:48 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

Great Samsara ---what is the ideal rate banks are giving out? I was preapproved once with 6.2%  for no fee mortgage- i thought it was  high interms of current market situations for lower level loans. Its not like i am trying to borrow a million from them. How do i compete banks with rates? ask you or lendingtree.com lol -----?

How about google's shares?? Today some irish decent annouced CUIL.COM which is supposed to be three times better than google in terms of indexing the sites and better result. Will that crack a hole in google's ass (currently without hole ) I guess google settle for 3% down today for $477 probably due to cuil's announcements. I feel that subprime crisis is far more affecting folks than dotcom meltdown in late 99/00.  

 

 


 
Posted on 07-28-08 4:06 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

yo sam/hydie! thanks for the bone. at least i have something to chew on now.

the record budget deficit (damn $490 billion!) will have a massive global effect IMO since Feds' stimulus is being transmitted to different countries (including asian and pacific, let alone european) across the globe and that will increase the commodity price and hence the global inflation.

btw, in case if you folks missed, a warning about a complete meltdown in the US was issued by Fortis in their press release a month ago.

the recession looks quite ominous no doubt. the question is: are we staring at the face of a great depression which they say occur once in every human lifetime?

assuming 80 years of  lifetime, the last depression occurred in 1929. now add 80 years to it. 2009?

it's impossible to correctly predict economy in the midst of various dynamic economic variables. even buffet gave up for that matter. so we may never know until it actually occurs.

btw, there is an adage which goes like this: If your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession. If you lose your job, you know a depression has arrived! hahaha

IMO, the depression is around the corner, if the present trend continues (which looks plausible). it will take at least 7-8 years for the depressed housing sector to revive in the US. the foreclosure will go and hit the UK and other European countries as well where the subprime loan is given (at cheap rate).

since there is no subprime in the indian real estate industry, they will survive. but there's a caveat.  their GDP will get affected because of plummeting IT exports. remember, IT contributes about 6-7%  GDP growth in india. Since Indian IT companies rely heavily on the US and Europe, there will be cut back on their IT budget.

sometimes we feel, our generation (especially we nepalese) are the most transient of all generations. there are changes everywhere (in the country and outside) if you look closely (all for the betterment I hope)



 
Posted on 07-28-08 4:41 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 


This thread is really getting interesting. Thanks samsara

 
Posted on 07-28-08 10:14 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
Login in to Rate this Post:     0       ?    
 

samsara ji...
I am not a student of economics... but just the other day i was reading about the how economics was called a dismal science.. and found out how overtly racist that philosophy was.... and just wanted to know what you thought about it...
anyway as you suggested that i sight my post ... it was from "http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/carlyle/kennedy1.html"

 



PAGE:   1 2 3 4 NEXT PAGE
Please Log in! to be able to reply! If you don't have a login, please register here.

YOU CAN ALSO



IN ORDER TO POST!




Within last 7 days
Recommended Popular Threads Controvertial Threads
TPS Re-registration case still pending ..
and it begins - on Day 1 Trump will begin operations to deport millions of undocumented immigrants
NOTE: The opinions here represent the opinions of the individual posters, and not of Sajha.com. It is not possible for sajha.com to monitor all the postings, since sajha.com merely seeks to provide a cyber location for discussing ideas and concerns related to Nepal and the Nepalis. Please send an email to admin@sajha.com using a valid email address if you want any posting to be considered for deletion. Your request will be handled on a one to one basis. Sajha.com is a service please don't abuse it. - Thanks.

Sajha.com Privacy Policy

Like us in Facebook!

↑ Back to Top
free counters