Birth of Hindu religion:
There are different opinions regarding of the birth of Hindu religion. There is literally a tug of war between the scholars’ one in favour of Dravidian origin and other of Aryan origin. There is hardly any third opinion on that though a small section feels that it has originated from indigenous tribal of India. This is because no great man of this origin had ever tried to write or researched to claim that Hindu religion is born from their indigenous tribal faith.

First of all the word Hindu it self has root to non-aryan Kirata or Borok origin with Sindu or Chindi river through the Indus civilisation, is not at all the Indo-Aryan one. Secondly the theory of Hindu religions birth from indo-Aryan faith is null and void by the following facts. Let us look at the list of names of Gods which the Indo-Aryan people had brought when they invaded Indus civilisation. Rig-veda has all the names of god which the Indo-Aryan used to worship when they first came to India. Their faith and philosophy were based on these gods only. The rituals, procedure and hymn etc were detailed in the sacred text of Vedas. Some of the primary and powerful gods mentioned in the Rig-Vedas are Indra, Agni, Varun, Vrihaspati, Brahma, Arundhati, Soma, Vayu, Aswin, Rhitu, Marut, Rudra, Ribhus, Savitar, Brahmanspati. But in the present day Hindu religion none of the Vedic god is worshipped in India. The Brahma is the only one ha temple at Puskar in Rajasthan, and he too does not have any day fixed through out a year. There is no god of Aryan or Vedic origin in the list of Hindu Gods of modern India, other than doubtfully the Vishnu which is considered to be origin of Dravidian. On the contrary none of the Hindu gods of modern India is mentioned or had a place in Vedas. These facts clearly prove that the Hindu religion and its gods are neither born from Aryan faith nor derived from Vedic gods and philosophy.

http://tripurasociety.org/hindu.htm

Current faith and practices in Hindu religion is so broad and were much more broader until 16-17th century. They were originated from different groups, places and civilization so it is useless to discuss where the faith in Hinduism originated from because there is no single faith and practice. They are just the collection of different faiths upon Bishnu or Shiva or whoever and practices which were in existence for thousand of years ago and collectively known as Sanatan Dharma. The word Hindu itself did not exist until some 18 th century; it was coined by some British or German scholar. Then present form of Hinduism is much more uniform in terms of faiths and practices though it is still the most diverse as compared to other main religions.

Dear, kanchu i am quite skeptical about your theory. But according to the Tripuri people,
there were  many indigenous people living in Indus Valley as tribes before the arrival of Aryan from the west as i have an excerpt from the website < http://www.tripura.org.in/origin.htm>
on Tripuri people below;

Indus civilization:

The civilization of Chinese, Egyptian and Mesopotamia were of homogenous group of people, where as the Indus civilization was found to be comprised of heterogeneous group of human race. The skulls found of Harappa and Mahenjo-daro belonged to proto-australoid, Mongoloid, Mediterranean and Alpine races. This clearly proved that the mongoloid were also part of the Indus civlisation. The proto-australoid were ancestor of modern day's Santal, Kol, Bhil, Munda etc. tribes of central India, Mediterranean were ancestor of modern day's Tamil, Telegu, etc. but no skull was found of from the site of excavation belonging to Aryan people.

Aryan Invaded Indus Civilization:

The Aryan invaded India some time around 1700 BC, the Indus civilization ruined around same time. There were plenty of examples that the Aryan destroyed the Indus civilization and plundered the citizens, the Australoid, mongoloid of Indus valley. There are several wars mentioned in Rig-Veda, Indra was the strongest king of Aryan who destroyed many forts, so he was termed as Purander in Veda. The excavation of Mahenjo-daro and Harappa had discovered many of human skeleton buried in one place indicate that these people were buried in one place after being killed. Finding of skeleton of children further confirms that Indus civilization was plundered and destroyed by external enemy. So the citizen of Indus valley i.e., the Austric race was forced to migrate to wards east and middle of India, Dravidian in the south and the Mongoloid in the north and north east of India.



Returning to Hindu God, Vishnu is considered by the scholars as the originally god of Dravidian people and have derived from word ‘Vin’ who was god of sun and sky of Dravidian. He was mentioned in the later book of Rig-Veda, when he was accepted in the Vedic faiths.
 
The Origin of Shiva:
The word Shiva has root in the Kirata or Borok race, not in the Vedas  because  Shiva as god is not mentioned in it. Shiva is hybrid of two Kirata words, simani means Gyan or knowledge and Kaiba, means five, i.e. Si+Ba=Siba>Siva>Sibarai>Sibrai . That means a god who has knowledge of five elements of life, that is earth, fire, water, air, and sky, that is cosmic rays which forms the life. That is one who has created life in this world or creator of life in the world. Other meaning can be one who made us perceive or feel five senses in our body, that is who is the soul of the boy. It is this Sibrai converted to Shivai in Sanskrit. From this five shiva is said to have five face and named as “Panchanan.”

In Bodo culture he is known as Bathubrai, meaning king of collection of five elements of earth, fire, water, air and sky, that means creator, the supreme god. The other meaning can apply in this case also. So the god Shiva is originally god of Borok/ Kirata race not that of Aryan or Dravidian.

The other name of Mahadev is direct translation of Mutai kotor, the supreme god of Tripuri people and first among the fourteen gods. The mutai kotor or Subrai is considered as supreme creator of this universe and the life in the earth in the mythology of Tripuri people. This fact had been finally accepted in the Indian mythology and Shiva had been placed above the Vishnu and Brahma of trinity gods.

Feature of Shiva the Creator:

1)      His home or abode is in the Himalaya only, namely Amarnath, Badrinath, Hardwar, Kedaranath, Kailash mansarover and many more. It is again home of Kirata or borok race.

2)      Fond of wine, ganja, dhatura who remains intoxicated most of time.

3)      Fond of meat and non-vegeterean foods.

4)      He is half naked, wearing skin of tiger in the loin only, rudraskha or dudrai mala in neck.

5)      Living with Snakes and other animals.

6)      His symbol is crescent moon, a symbol of Chandra dynasty, Trishul in hand.

7)      He is wandering god, living with different ghost in the cremation ground; body is smeared with ash of cremation.

8)      Hair is uncombed, unclean body, with horn pipe in hand, and dumbru in other.

9)      He is short tempered, mighty, courageous, does not think of consequences, destructives.

10)  Easily convincible, compassionate, merciful, big hearted as termed Ashutosh or Bholenath.

11)   Living with wife, who is Parvati or Haichwkma, goddess of Hill.

12)  His animal carrier was originally buffalo, which was later converted to Ox by Aryan people, as found in Indus valley. The buffalo is still the carrier of Shiva in Tibet, China, and Japan proves that it was originally of Kirata god.

13)   Worshiped by offering wine, animal sacrifice, and water is poured in the Shiva linga.

All the above feature of the Shiva suggest that he was the god of Kirata or Borok race initially but later modified to suit the Aryan faith or belief. And he was termed as one of the Hindu god and his carrier animal had been changed from buffalo to ox.

So this can somehow relates or prove that some of the hindu god is connected to the pre-aryan people.

    KASTEN RONNOW in his long article “kirata” A study on some ancient Indian tribes published in 1936 has provided a detailed accounts of the kiratas.The subject is further highlighted in Encyclopaedia prepared by R.N SALETORE, ROBERT has touched on the subject without giving any details. SUDHAKAR CHATTOPADHYAH had tried to do justice with the subject concerned through his Important work. R.P. CHANDRA a celebrated Indian anthropologist and a highly accomplished scholar of ideology has also made a historical study of a few ancient Indian tribes by taking a numismatic approach to the problem concerned. All of them mentioned about kirata which is the most ancient tribe in Indian continent.

    The more important inscriptions about the ethnic communities of the region are the PANDUKESHVAR copper plate inscription or the CHARTERS AND GRANTS OF LALITASURA middle of the 9th century A.D and the grants of PADMA, middle of the 10th century A.D. Both of Kumaon Garwal region. These have been addressed to the kiratas, The khasas,the Dravidas and otheres. One of the PANDUKESHVAR inscriptions provided a glimpse of the kingdom of RAJYA KIRATAS  {kumaon and karttikeyapur}. Sikh guru Nanak himself was born in KIRATPUR ancient kirat kingdom in Punjab. Classical GREEK AND ROMAN writer  also mentioned about kirata. The first Greek historian and geographer to speak clearly of the races of north western India was HECATEUS of miletus {B.C 549 - 486}.

    In his geographical work the period gees he mentions KALATIAI OR KALLATIAI along with other tribal people who were living on the frontier Hills. The KALATIAI can etymologically be identified with kiratas living on the Upper Indus. People says Indus civilization is Aryan civilization but in historic, anthropologist and archaeologist way this civilization was completely belongs to kirata because this civilization was before 5000 B.C but Aryan start to migrate in Indian continent only after 1500 B.C from Iran. What they only found in Indus
valley where the civilization was were various forms of  Statue of GOD SHIVA, an ancient tribe(kirata) God.

    Very import few CHINESE TEXT  are also worthy of mention. The most ancient text PO-OU-YEO-JING. Translated in 308 AD. Refers to an appellation VI-TI-SAI, which from the Chinese point of view is an exact equivalent to the kiratas who were the very popular and doughty warrior in the Chinese text. They were mentioned as quite similar with Chinese race. Golden yellowy color. From Chinese and Japanese point of view ancient Hindu religion itself was the religion of kiratas because many god and goddess were used to worship by local tribes before Aryan start to migrate in Indian continent. Hindu religion only seems borrowed by Aryans and later claimed their religion adding some other system and god,goddess. Like ancient Hindu god and goddest{AGNI, BAYU, BIRYE, BARUN}were already existed before Aryan comes. All the Chinese, French, Arabian, Japanese, venetian travelers also mentioned about the kiratas in the ancient text. FA-HIAN{399-414 AD} Who visited India during Gupta period has made a passing reference of a kirat. HIUEN-TSANG{629-645 AD} Who visited India during the time of HARSA, has left behind an elaborate account of India. He also mentioned about kiratas saying beautiful people. kiratas were described  in many different way.  The last alphabet of the word kirata{ta} disappeared and kirata, became “kira” in kanga. A village has been called KIR and the king as the “KIRA-RAJA” They were called kinnar as well that means “LIKE WOMEN WHO HAS NO BEARED AND MUSTACHES”

   All these points to that the origin of Hindu religion is the result of the collective practices, god and goddess of an ancient Indian tribes and is not of Aryan origin.
I have to agree that Ctal has summarize the points on origin of hinduism very well.
Kudos Ctal.


Worl referenced:

-The abode of amative
-Garwal the land and people
-study on Kumaon Himalaya
-myths, rituals and believes in Himachal Pradesh
- Tribes in ancient India
By Bimala Churn Law
- Tribal roots of Hinduism
By Shiv Kumar Tiwari

I am doing double major. My second major is the Archaeology and my focus is on Indian-Subcontinent.  While doing my research on ancient tribes in Indian sub-Continent i came across this site which describes about some ethnic tribes in India and about some information that is related to Hinduism. More interestingly this ethnic group is associated with the ancient Kirata people.
While doing research on ancient tribes of India, their culture, customs and practices, one can easily identify that Hinduism revolves around these ancient tribes.

For long time now scholars were puzzled with the Hinduism. There were no exact founder of religion of Hinduism and the unexplainable of being thousands of Gods in one religion. But lately, people have beginning to understand the meaning of Hinduism all crediting to the scholars who have studied on ancient Indian tribes. Lately, foreign scholars and historians have beginning to understand Hinduism much better and has label religion of Hinduism as a "Borrowed" or "plagarize" religion.
But concerning to me, i said that it is a derivation of tribal religions.

http://www.himachalindiatourism.com/people-of-himachal.htm

The State And The People:
The beautiful hill state of Himachal Pradesh lies at the foothills of the Himalayas. The mon khmer (Kirat) and other tribes had sought shelter here when persecuted by the Aryan invaders. Shanwar was their brave and powerful leader. This proves that this tribe exited as far back as the Rig-Vedic (early vedic) period. In the second century B.C. this entire area was known as Kinnar, the land of Kiratas. Proofs for this are available In the famous stone edict (in the Sharda script) found in the Shiva temple at Baij Nath. The edict refers to the settlement as the 'Kir' village (Kirat Gram). These tribes have now settled in the Lahaul-Spiti, Chamba and Pangi areas. In the Malanga village in kulu, we have distinct proofs of the Kiratas having settled there.

In the tribal area of this region one still comes across prehistoric socio-cultural beliefs. The Kiratas, the Yakshas and Nagas here are among those important tribes to which we have parallel references in the Puranas and history. According to these the forerunner of man in the universe, "Manu lived in Manali (Manavalaya, the abode of Manu). The oldest temple of saint Manu is located here. Other rishis too performed Tapas here. Ashramas of some of them like Vashishtha, Vyasa asn Bhrigu are located here. All this proves tha this area has a long historical past and it has performed an important role in the rise and development of the human race.

From the topographical point of view, this area has been referred to as Trigarta, an area separated from the plains of the Punjab by its peculiar physical characteristics. It had six Janapadas known as Trigarta Shashtha or Jalandharayana. The present day districts of Chamba, Kulu, Mandi, Bilaspur and Kangra come within this Trigarta area, well known in the hill regions. It was also called the Ayuddha Sangha, a federation of six principalities.

There are also indications that the Aryan Rishis of yore preferred to live in cooler climates, in area lying between Kashmir in the west and the coastal regions of the Sutluj river in the east. The Rigveda calls the Vyasa river 'Arjikiya'. In this area are also located the remains of the eight storied temple of the saint temple of the saint Shringi and Skirntila, the site where the king Dashrath is said to have performed the Putreshti Yagna (the fire sacrifice that helps produce a male heir). It is also said that the saint Bhrigu had brought the fire God Agni down from the heavens in this very area. Perhaps Parvati, the daughter of the Himalayas, also belonged to the area. There is a river called the Parvati in the Kullu region, after which the valley is known as the Parvati valley. This perhaps was also the domain the King Daksha, whose daughter Sati had burnt herself in the sacrified fire, and was consequently immortalized as Sati (the Truthful one). Lord Krishna's grandson Pradyumna was married to Usha, the daughter of King Banasur of Shonitpura (now known as Sarain near Rampur). It is said that at the end of the Satyg, the rishi Jamdgni was born here and tales about his son. Parashuram and wife Renuka are well-known in the region. Nirmand, the place where the saint Parashar performed Tapas and the origins of the Beas (Vija Sa Srofa) are located here. All in all, the entire area has a very long and rich historical past.

JPEG,
The thing I wrote above are not my theroy, like you are doing now, I did have the opportunity to research about Indus, Vedic and their relation to civilization of the rest of the world and it was almost more than 10 years ago, nor I do clearly remember the books we read, but we did read lot of manuscripts, if you go to varanasi, some are in Kerala and Chennai,  you will still find many of those intact in their library. Amzaingly, in Nepal, "thayasphu" you will get to read lot of manuscripts. We discovered there were clear conflicts between Dravida doctrine and aryan doctrine, you may know dravida who constructed famous temples in the later part of histroy while they were ruling clan of south india and their doctrine was to deny north indian invasion in india are still  based upon " anti-bramhin" sentiment, and you can still see that conflict in current indian politics.

Wester Scholars while tried to impose that as if Aryan belong to "east/central" europe easter scholars are arguing as if the whole civilization belong one particular group. That is what your posting tries to dipict as well. As a matter of fact-like I said in my earlier post "civilization is passage of time" you need to understand " Mohenzodaro" and "harappan" civilization declined not because of aryan invasion-there might have been some external /internal conflicts which I am denying but they were declined because of  people in a process discovered " most fertile land and suitable climate" towards east. Which led them move towards east.

Coming back to hinduism, there are many branches and doctrines which were evolved later and in theier early stages there are total interconnection, sharing and conflicts amongst them. Still now these conflicts exists. But denying one group or prtotraying one group as a guard and other as an evil, does not really justify the truth. If you go to japan and china, you will be amazed to see the god and godess in their musuem are named after both hindu/vedic god and budhha goddess. So hte influence of these civilization had enormous impact and well spreaded, which also left lot of people to wonder, research and some time logical conjecture. We will see more and more discovery in a days to come but as for me I can not deny one's presence and contribution in the history as most religiously biased and western scholars do.

Very recently there has been on genetic research conducted in kerala in dravida community which proved that they are originated from africa. Based on this, some are eager to deny the presence and contribution of dravida to the development of hindu tradtion, but scholars well proved that the interconnection amongst non western civilization. What I can tell you from my experince is that the more you will read the more you will find interconnection amonst various easter civilizations which are either linked to indus/vedic civilizaiton or buddhism ( not necessarily shakya buddha..there were many before him, like "wipaspi" who is often linked civilization of KTM but hindu believe it was krishna). I find it very fascinating.

Again, some historians do keep deny or keep secret  either because they want to their own cast/ religion to flourish and this has also happened in the history. This is why current they modern historians believe in physical evidences and manuscripts. For example if someone say there was not any " nepal sambhat" in the history, it was the " pashupati bhattaraka" sambhat which they are refering to newars would kill them but as most the historians know this fact there was not any such "nepal sambhat" nor any proofs even a myth that "sankha dhar shakwa" was savior. This is why anthropology and history become intersting.

Share your knowlegde and keep posting.

Thanks

Btw, I remember a book I read few years ago.

Kanchu, i see where you are pointing to. But please do not make that mistake. As far as i can see you are only going along with the manuscripts. Ok fine because manuscripts do mentions the names, places and events  including the dates. But one ought to know this that we cannot depend too
much on the manuscripts. After all the manuscripts in veranasi, kerala and chennai are written by the brahmins of india.
So there tends to be lot of bias against ancient tribes of India whom were non-aryan race. We have to understand that these manuscripts are written by the same people who created the caste system.

Let me quote you from the Reg-Vedas, the holiest script of the Hindus.
 "The Bahun was born from the mouth, the Chetri from the arms, the Vaishya from the thighs and the Sudhra from the foot".
So how can one believe this doctrine??  If we are to follow the manuscripts, then we should be asking to what extend should we believe?

Dood you are saying to some extend that the scholars are showing biasness. You even said western scholars. How can you show so much remorse against these scholars. And let me tell you, not all the scholars are western. In my study and to my knowldege, they are also well-known Indian as well as Nepalese scholars who have done an extensive research and penned down their findings. Surely the mixture of scholars couldn't be wrong unlike the manuscripts you are going with.

And just to tell you that this website <http://www.tripura.org.in/origin.htm> on
The Origin of Tripuri People are  not run by foreigners and
 these same Tripuri people are not foreigners themselves but the natives of India.

You claim mine is a theory. Well prove it dear Kanchu. Todays world is run by science. Science is fact. It's real and does not discriminate anyone anything.

From the point of archeology work, the skulls found of Harappa and Mahenjo-daro belonged to proto-australoid, Mongoloid, Mediterranean and Alpine races but no skull was found of from the site of excavation belonging to Aryan people.
This clearly proved that the mongoloid were the natives of Indus civilisation along with the proto-australoid , mediterranean and alpine races.


Neolithic tools found in the Kathmandu Valley indicate that people have been living in the Himalayan region for at least 9,000 years and along with other ancient texts, it appears that Kirant ethnicity people were living in this region. This is according to "A Country Study: Nepal". Federal Research Division, Library of Congress. http://memory.loc.gov/frd/cs/nptoc.html

This proves that they were already other races in then ancient india (indian sub-continent) before the advent of aryan. When scholars refers ancient india, Nepal is included because boundary did not exist then.
Therefore Kancha how can you just pushed aside the natives of ancient india and disregard them as though there weren't there at the first place.
But if you agree to acknowledge that Aryan race only came to indus valley later on, (some time around 1700 BC), then one clearly have the idea of religions and practices influnce of these ancient tribes on the later race.

Thanks for your book suggestion. I will no doubt try to read it. Anything that is helpful to my major study is good.

xxx,
       jpg

JPEG Ji
It is very fascinating to read your posting. Although I'm NOT a history major, I've been learning as much as I can. It is obvious that you have some in dept knowledge of the history around the Indian sub continent. Would you be kind enough to point us some book to learn about the history of earlier people in Nepal itself, mainly Kathmandu. Do we even have books, is it a guy's theory printed by Ratna Pustak Bhandar or are they backed with proof.
Since I'm an enthusiast, I have no patience to know any history of any place unless there is a significant achievement at the time period in terms of science and technology. With that in mind, I did read a book about Harappa and Mahenjo-daro, too much unnecessary info for me. It might be a gold mine for you.
I've got few question regarding what you've written so far

1.Was Harappa and Mahenjo-daro only settlement in Asian continent. As proud the Indians are of their history, Chinese people brag about their history too, all the way to 5000 years. What about Chinese people around that time. Are you implying Chinese people are the descendant of the Harappa and Mahenjo-daro people?
2.Where can I see the artifacts of Harappa and Mahenjo-daro people? Are they in India?
3.The artifacts found in KTM dating back to 9,000. Where is that now?

I do agree history and archeology can be written by a race in their favor and hide the real truth. Evey year there is a new discovery of newer civilization. Nothing is true until backed by science and scholars(not just one).

1.manuscripts and hieroglyphs are not written by only bramhins or only one cast as a matter fact, on contrary to your presumption, they are the testimony of the civilization of that period including  many ethnic civilization.

2. Where did you see I am denouncing presence of other ethnic group, as a matter of fact, there were many tribes and ethinic people and geographic regions were the part of these " i would rather refer eastern civilization".

3.And I do not have anything against western scholars, but in general they are the one who exploited/twisted ideology.  I wish you had read more. Read some contemporary piece like " western idea on destruction of local knowlege". Well, it seems you are jumping on conclusion based on one web site, as for me like you think, this is not as easy, as you try to portray.

4. again where i denounce the use of science rather if you read my post, i gave you an example of very recent genetic test.

5. As for your argument on " Native" -well if you read history, those days there are nothing like "native" rather many were "nomadic"-people used to move/trade one place from the other in a serch for food and shelter.

6. As for your pointing cast division toward " rig veda"
"The Bahun was born from the mouth, the Chetri from the arms, the Vaishya from the thighs and the Sudhra from the foot". So how can one believe this doctrine??
Those were the different period and social order was different, today you are view those doctrine with neo-democratic eyes which is not the correct way. FYI, even today this social system exists, but differently. I guess you are intelligent enough to understand.

Again there are different opinions and argument which you can just google:

"The Indus Valley civilization had a form of writing but till date the
code hasn’t been cracked. As a result little is known of their
political system or their religion. But a number of engraved seals and
terracotta figurines give us some clues about what life must’ve been
like. The Indus Valley civilization was at its peak during 2,300-1,700
BC, after which it declined. The reasons for the decline are not clear.
While some scholars say tectonic upheavals caused a series of floods
others attribute it to climatic change, as the area grew cooler and
drier. It has also been suggested that rivers changed course. In those
days less rainfall or a changed in the course of a river would have had
severe consequences for farming and consequently on trade and commerce.
Like all early civilizations the Indus Valley depended on farming."

So I do not believe only aryan invasion would have destroyed.

Unlike many believe Aryans- were indo-european tribe there has been 1000 researches which proved that is wrong, it is the only western scholar who are keep repeating this fact to show their supremacy.

Read this peice too- like I said,

"After the collapse of the Indus Valley civilization a new wave of
people entered India. The Aryans came from central Asia( I SAID TURKIMINISTAN) and entered
India through Afghanistan after 1500 BC. ( MAKE SENSE) Their entry into the Indian
sub-continent was probably through a series of invasions from the North
over a period of time. The Aryans were a semi-nomadic race of
pastoralists. By 1,000 BC they had learned to use iron. However in time
the Aryans settled down and became farmers.


Slowly a more ordered and settled society evolved. Tribes went on to
become kingdoms. The Aryans became the priests, rulers and warriors,
free peasants and merchants. The subdued people became the slaves,
laborers and artisans. In time this stratified society crystallized
into the present day caste system.


ONE MORE THING-RIG -VEDA on contraray to popular belief that is written by BRAMHINS, as a matter of fact , it is a comprehensive doctrine which  inlvolved many ethnic groups. And dates back to as early as 4000BC. Again there are lot of contradictions-

some scholars claims- it is written by aryans, but if like jpeg said aryans came only in 1700 BC then how can that be possible???, this means aryans were there before 1700 BC. So many scholars came to this conclusion that " aryan" often referred to as " indo-european" tribe are not the aryan who wrote RIG VEDA, " aryan who came from central asia and part of mohenzodaro civilzation" are the one who must have written rig veda and are the true aryans.

Again this is not as easy as there a many schools of thoughts.

As I said, there are several school of thoughts this is one of the many

Facts
which cast serious doubt on the Aryan
Invasion Theory

•
There is no evidence of an Aryan homeland
outside of India mentioned anywhere
in the Vedas. On the contrary, the Vedas
speak of the mighty Sarasvati River
and other places indigenous to India.
To date, no evidence for a foreign intrusion
has been found, neither archaeological,
linguistic, cultural nor genetic.

•
There are more than 2,500 Archaeological
sites, two-thirds of which are along
the recently discovered dried up Sarasvati
River bed. These sites show a cultural
continuity with the Vedic literature
from the early Harrapan civilization
up to the present day India.

The
archaeological sites along the dried
up Sarasvati River basin are represented
by black dots.

•
Several independent studies of the drying
up of the Sarasvati River bed, all indicate
the same time period of 1,900 B.C.E.

•
The significance of establishing this
date for the drying up of the Sarasvati
River is, that it pushes the date for
the composition of the Rig Veda back
to approximately 3,000 B.C.E., as enunciated
by the Vedic tradition itself.

•
The late dating of the Vedic literatures
by indologists is based on speculated
dates of 1,500 B.C.E. for the Aryan
Invasion and 1,200 B.C.E. for the Rig
Veda, both now disproved by scientific
evidence.

Max
Muller, the principal architect of the
Aryan Invasion theory, admitted the
purely speculative nature of his Vedic
chronology, and in his last work published
shortly before his death, The Six
Systems of Indian Philosophy, he
wrote: "Whatever may be the date
of the Vedic hymns, whether 15 hundred
or 15,000 B.C.E., they have their own
unique place and stand by themselves
in the literature of the world."

he
Vedic Culture is indigenous to India

It
can be scientifically proven that the
Vedic Culture is indigenous, through
archaeology, the study of cultural continuity,
by linguistic analysis, and genetic
research.

For
example, the language and symbolism
found on the Harappan seals are very
Vedic. We find the Om symbol, the leaf
of the Asvatta or holy banyan tree,
as well as the swastika, or sign of
auspiciousness, mentioned throughout
the Vedas. Om is mentioned in the Mundaka
and Katha Upanisads as well as
the Bhagavad Gita.

The
Holy Asvatta tree is mentioned in the
Aitareya and Satapata
Brahmanas as well as the Taittiriya
Samhita and Katyayana
Smrti.

The
pictoral script of these Harappan seals
has been deciphered as consistently
Vedic and termed "Proto-brahmi,"
as a pre-sanskrit script.

This
piece of pottery from the lowest level
of Harappan excavations with pre-harappan
writing is deciphered as ila vartate
vara, referring to the sacred land
bounded by the Sarasvati River, described
in the Rig Veda.

Additionally,
other archaeological finds are culturally
consistent, such as the dancing girl,
whose bracelets are similar to those
worn by women of Northwest India today
as well as

the three stone Siva Lingas found in
Harappa by M. S. Vats in 1940. The worship
of the Siva Linga is mentioned in the
Maha Narayana Upanisad of the
Yajur Veda and is still ardently
practiced today.

The
Vedas were maligned by early indologists
because of their disagreement with their
Eurocentric colonialists world view,
a view which produced and depended on
the Aryan Invasion Theory. The fact
that the Aryan Invasion Theory has been
seriously challenged recently by scholars
and indologists, adds credence to the
Vedas as viable, accurate and indigenous
sources of information.

 

Satellite
imagery of the Dried Up Sarasvati River
Basin

Using
modern scientific methods, such as satellite
imagery and dating techniques, it can
be shown that the ancient statements
of the Vedas are factual, not mythical
as erroneously propagated. High resolution
satellite images have verified descriptions
in The Rig Veda of the descent of the
ancient Sarasvati River from it's source
in the Himalayas to the Arabian Sea.

"Pure
in her course from the mountains to
the ocean, alone of streams Sarasvati
hath listened."

THIS IS WHY I DO NOT BUY ARYAN INVASION THEORY BECAUSE IT IS BACKED BY SO CALLEDWESTERN SCHOLARS  ALWSAYS TRY TO SHOW THEIR SUPREMACY BY FORCING PEOPLE TO BELIVE THAT ARYAN WERE INDO EUROPEAN TRIBE....

While east were in the period RIG VEDA, MOHENZODARO AND VEDIC CIVILIZATION they were still in STONE HENGE CULTURE- are they kidding me???

READ THIS ANOTHER PIECE- YOU BUY IT! MANY EASTERN SCHOLARS DENY IT

The RIG VEDA translated by Ralph
T.H. Griffith, 1889. Peter Myers, January 15, 2002; update September 7,
2008. My comments are shown {thus}.

The Greeks acquired civilization from Egypt, the Phoenicians, Babylon
etc., i.e. the "Aryan myth" that Civilization is Aryan is wrong.

The Aryans were nomadic tribal peoples, barbarian invaders. They learned
civilization from the people they conquered, in India, Iran and the Mediterranean.

But there was an Aryan invasion. The name for Persia, "Iran",
is derived from the word "aryan", as is the word "Eire",
the name of Ireland. The Brahmins of India still call themselves "aryan".

The Aryans invaded Western Europe, but they formed a ruling class, an
aristocracy, not the whole body of the people. They imposed their languages,
as Hungary and Turkey received non-Indo-European languages by invasion
(Finland perhaps too).

Spencer Wells is a Geneticist, Director of the Genographic Project.
In his book The Journey of Man, he shows that Europe's ancestry
derives mainly from people in that continent around 30,000 years ago; not
from early agriculturalists in the Middle East. He discovered a genetic
marker, M17, which is the signature of the Aryan invaders from the steppe
into east & central Europe and northern India: 

Kanchu...

I think you're a well educated individual but the last comment was pretty childish. Just because you came from Mahenzo civilization does NOT mean you are a superior race. Dishing Western civilization like that will not make us better. Live as much as you want on the past, but it will not change the fact, they are superior to us NOW. What's the point of having ancient culture if they did NOT do nothing important. If time is the factor of how superior you can be, then please bear in mind, human beings came from Africa a few millions years ago. So by your logic, Africa is the most superior continient. Forget about your few thousand years of history, they have millions of years (Go take a look at Lucy in Ethopia). So just being there does not mean anything important unless you grow and evolve.

Stone Henge is not the only western civilization. Anyway, they were pretty creative and scientific compared to Mahenzo.There were many many more other civiliazation spread throughout Europe, and every year they are excavating new ones. Take a look at the Island of Santorini, near modern day Greece. I'm bring it up since it dates back to 3000 years like your vedic civilization and were master of science and technology. Everything was buried under volcanic ashes and was preserved in pristine condition. Being on island, they were expert sailors, they had boats equipped for war. They had homes with toilet on the 2nd floor (two storied houses never existed during that time frame) with ventilation. You can take a trip to the ruined city and see the plumbing system(like modern day) distributed all over the well planned city (the same "city" concept that the Greeks reinvented after 1500 years later). The remains of the Santorini is all there for public display all intact.Go take a trip, it is a beautiful holiday destination too.

Though it is just wiki, it does have all the written facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini

Rewire,

I am not saying who is superior or who is not at present all I was trying to say is when it comes to eastern civilization, western scholars in many cases twisted the fact to show they/their knowledge is superior. Most often eastern people followed them blindly with little or no research, which has yielded nothing but " Humiliation" amongst eastern scholars. You can find it childish it is upto you.  When you talk about history, you talk about that period and try to draw compare and contrasts of that particular period. That is why I draw the fact of Stone Henge.Unlike you, I think you can learn great things from the past, learn new technology some time more advance than current, this is how you make yourself educated and advance yourself taking reference from the past. Your saying " What's the point of having ancient culture if they did NOT do nothing important." I am sorry, either you are very naive or too igonorant about cultural evolution and  civilization.To understand why they are important or not, you need to understand the " process of civilization" and their.evolution. Will you call all the people who are studying anthropology, sociology, archiology, history, architecture, art are STUPID?

anyway, thanks for sharing info about Eurpean Civilization and will go to holiday sometime as suggested.

Kanchu I appreciate your thoughts. I am sick and tired of people who lack actual research, read few books and pretend to know it all.

I found really intellectual stuff on this thread. I am,too, intereseted and would have thought of contributing but on my second thought I decided not to because my research is not that great. Mine is superfluous. Anyway, kudos to those who enlightened me to some extent . Please keep posting.

Kanchu ji thanks for your information yaar. I will look at your case closely when i have the time and counterattack any prepositions it has to offer.
In the mean time hope you people read my articles below;
 

 
     The Harappa civilization flourished in the Indus Valley during India's Bronze Age of the third millennium b.c. This thriving culture was all but completely descimated in 2500 b.c. by invading Aryan groups from the west. The archaeological evidence that has been produced by the famous sites of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro suggest that the people of the Harappa Culture may have in fact, contributed more substantially to modern Hindu culture than was previously believed. The Harappa Culture of the Indus valley saw it's peak during the Bronze Age of India. It stretched from it's northern capital, Harappa, in the Punjab, to the southern city, Mohenjo-daro, on the Indus in Sind (Piggott, 134). These two sites together comprise the most well known and best excavated representatives of
Bronze Age Harappan culture. However, it should be noted that in addition to these two famous sites, there are fourteen smaller villages in Harappa's "Northern Kingdom", and seventeen smaller sites in Mohenjo-daro's "Southern Kingdom";together, these sites comprise the remains of the once extensive Harappan culture (Piggott, 136). Both main sites have certain striking features in common; in particular, both are, or were, located on the banks of major rivers -- Harappa on the Ravi, and Mohenjo-daro on
the Indus. Additionally, the plan and lay-out of the two cities is quite similar, consisting of: "an irregular
series of mounds toward the east and a recognizably higher and more compact mound placed more or less centrally and on the edge of the site[s] to the west," (Piggott,159). These mounds are now recognized as the remnants of fortified citadels in which stood "certain buildings of peculiar plan
defended by a battered wall of baked bricks... with towers and great gateways," (Piggott,159).

    Unfortunately the majority of the evidence at Harappa has been destroyed by "brick-robbers" and has been rendered largely incoherent. Luckily, Mohenjo-daro has been better preserved and we can
turn to it as a model in interpreting Harappa. At Mohenjo-daro, one of the most striking features is the presence of a remarkable complex of buildings centering on a great bath, "built of very fine brickwork," nearly 40 by 24 feet across, and eight feet deep. Around this central bath was a cloister, and small "changing-rooms" on three sides (Piggott, 163). If one considers the "tank" ancillary to every Hindu temple of the middle-ages, the Great Bath can easily be seen as a sacred site. Also present at
Mohenjo-daro were two other outstanding architectural features: the Collegiate Building and the Pillared Hall. The Collegiate Building was a large building measuring 230 by 78 feet,with an arrangement of rooms suggesting a "college" of some sort, and a cloistered court resembling
that which surrounded the Great Bath. The Pillared Hall was located to the south of these buildings, and although much altered since it's original erection, it apparently once consisted of a "nearly square hall about 80 feet each way, with a roof supported on twenty rectangular brickwork
pillars," (Piggott,164). These buildings have led archaeologists to conclude that Mohenjo-daro was once "a centre of religious or administrative life on a significant scale," (Piggott,164). The buildings of Mohenjo-daro followed normal "oriental custom" of the time, with the outside walls of the houses being as featureless as possible, save the presence of doorways (Malik, 83). Most of the buildings were either shops, houses, or a combination of both. The houses seem to have been built
around a central courtyard, and on two or three sides were grouped rooms of varying sizes -- including bathrooms (Piggott, 168). The bath probably would have been taken by pouring water over the body from a large jar, as it is still done in many parts of India. In addition to the presence of bathrooms, beneath the city was an elaborate drainage system to which access was gained through brick
man-hole covers (Piggott, 168). This entire system shows a concern for sanitation unparalleled in the Bronze Age, or even modern Asia. The water supply for both cities was obtained from brick-lined wells, some of which served private homes, but others were meant for public use, serving the purpose of the water stall, or piau, of modern India (Piggott,177). Around these wells numerous fragments
of little, mass-produced, clay cups have been found (Malik,97). This evidence suggests that, as in modern Hinduism, there may have been a taboo against drinking from the same cup twice. Toward the north of the Mohenjo-daro site, behind the area known as the "workers quarters", a
collection of grain mortars were found. These "orderly rows of circular working floors carefully built of baked brick,.... , and originally containing at the center a massive wooden mortar sunk in the ground, in which grain could be pounded to flour with long heavy pestles ... [are] still employed in Bengal and Kashmir," (Piggott, 179).
 
     Within the walls of the two cities, evidence of commerce has been found in the form of small, cuboid weights made of chert (Piggott, 181). The weights run in a unit ratio of sixteen; "this use of the multiple of sixteen is interesting and curious, as the number had a traditional importance in early Indian numerology ... [and] in the modern coinage of sixteen annas to one rupee," (Piggott,181). Along with commerce came the need for a writing system. Essentially, the Harappa script was a pictographic one, "recalling the formality of Egyptian hieroglyphics," (Piggott,179). Like Hebrew, the language was probably read from right to left, and when a second line of characters was present, the boustrophedon practice was likely to have been followed (Piggott,180). While the idea of writing may have come from the Mesopotamians, the Harappa style of script is unique in most respects. However, the spoken language of the Harappan Culture will likely remain a mystery. The presence of a "Dravidian type of language in Baluchistan ... has given rise to the supposition that the Harappa language also belonged to this group," (Piggott,181). The majority of the examples of script have survived on the stamp-seals engraved with various representations of animals, gods, and humans (Piggott, 178). This type of seal (like a signet ring) was very common all over bronze age West Asia; with examples being found in Syria as early as Halaf times, and similar seals appearing in the "Tal-i-Bakun A phase in Southern Persia (Piggott, 184). The Sumerian cylinder-seal is, however, practically absent from the Harappa sites. The fact that Haraappa is characterized by stamp-seals and not cylinder-seals "should indicate that its eventual antecedents are likely to have been from Persia"(Piggott,185). For the most part, the pottery of the Harappa culture was plain, having been mass-produced for utilitarian reasons (Piggott, 1191). The most common type of decorated pottery was a black-on-red ware, suggesting ties with North Baluchistan (Piggott, 192). The surface of this pottery type was almost always dull (with the exception of two pieces), with the lines of the design being flush with the surface of the piece (Malik, 13). A less common polychromatic ware, which employed the use of green, red, black, and occasionally yellow pigments was less commonly found at the sites (Sankalia,1978; 13). It
should be noted that this type of polychromatic ware is rarely seen in other Asian sites of the time (Piggott,195). Typical designs consisted of either geometric or naturalistic patterns (Sankalia 1975, 132). Among the most common motifs were interlocking circles, scales, and combs;
naturalistic motifs included indigenous animals (peacocks, antelope, and zebras were common) and plants, with occasional human depictions as well (Malik,13-15). "As compared to Baluchistan, the designs of the [Harappa] ware are characterized by a certain boldness and careless freedom of patterning," (Malik,12). These uniquely Harappan designs were probably painted with donkey hair brushes similar to those still used in Sind today (Malik,14). Among the artifacts produced by the Harappa metal-smiths were simple flat-type axes, as well as shaft-hole axes, indicating that some of their culture may have been inherited from early Iranian tradition (Piggott,200). Additionally, chisels, knives, razors, spears (lacking the strengthening mid-rib), and fish hooks have been found at
both sites. The lack of armour at the Harappa sites points to a lack of contact with the warlike Sumerian culture. And aside from purely utilitarian copper objects, a wide range of bronze and silver bowls, cups, vases, and various other vessels have been found at both sites (Piggott,200).

    Archaeologically, of all the Harappa sites, Mohenjo-daro has produced some of the most convincing sculpture. In these pieces the use of inlay and was quite common, the "Bearded Man" being an excellent example of this technique: "...the trefoils on the robe and the disk on the bared right arm; probably the eyes and perhaps the ears may also have held inlays, while the sockets for a metal ... collar can be seen ... behind the ears," (Piggott,186). This type of inlay was "frequent in prehistoric Western Asia,but ... not characteristic of early historic Indian culture," (Piggott,186). An abundance
of small, female clay figurines suspected to have been "godlings in household shrines," (Piggott,187) were uncovered at the Harappa sites. Interestingly, Harappa civilization was completely devoid of all forms of public art -- from temples to monuments -- and one gets the
impression of cities with threatening blank walls enclosing secret religious practices and great hordes of wealth. The Harappa Culture was likely to have been administered by priest-kings (Piggott, 201), a practice which was not uncommon in Western Asia of this period. Among the religious objects left at the sites, the afore mentioned clay figurines, and a seal bearing a representation of a woman with a plant emerging from her womb, suggest the worship of a Mother-Goddess (Piggott, 201-2). These
goddesses are commonly worshipped even today in Hindu practices in the rural areas of India. Depictions of a man with three faces, sitting in a yogi's position and surrounded by four beasts has been interpreted as being a predecessor of the god Shiva (Piggott, 202). References to
the sacred fig tree, or pipal, still considered holy in modern Hindu practice, are seen as common motifs in Harappa pottery (Piggott, 202). These links between Harappa and modern Hinduism explain many of the features that cannot be attributed to the Aryan traditions brought to India with the fall of the Harappa civilization. "The old faiths die hard: it is even possible that early historic Hindu society
owed more to Harappa than it did to the Sanskrit-speaking invaders," (Piggott,208).

     Looking at the burial practices of the people of the Harappa Culture, links to modern Hindu
practices have been noted here as well. For example, the dead were often placed in "post-cremation urns". These urns contained the remains of completely cremated individuals,
and according to modern Hindu practice, they were supposed to have been thrown into a river for proper disposal (Piggott,204). The consistency of grave goods across the various settlements suggests a relative homogeneity of culture. Most burials were extended, with the head pointing north. A typical grave was large enough to hold largequantities of pottery vessels -- sometimes up to forty pieces (Piggott, 205). Personal items typically included in the graves were: copper rings (usually found on the third finger of the right hand), necklaces and anklets, bangles, bead strings, and rods for applying eye make-up (Piggott, 205). One burial in particular does stand-out however. In 1946,the body of a young girl was found wrapped in a shroud of reeds, and buried in a wooden box. This type of burial was commonly found in Sumerian sites dating between 2800 and 2000 bc (contemporary with Harappa), and has been taken to imply a link between the cultures (Piggott, 208).
However, aside from this possible Sumerian link, parallels with other contemporary cultures of the time have been difficult to find in the burial practices of the Harappans. Forensic archaeological evidence indicates that the people who created this culture were of mixed racial backgrounds.
Skulls characteristic of the "Mediterranean type'' -- long from chin to forehead -- have been the predominant skeletal type found at the Harappa sites. This type of skull is commonly related to expansion from the west, and is "associated with the earliest agricultural settlements: at
Sialk, ... ,[and] Alishar," (Piggott,146). The other main type of skull to be found belongs to people of the Proto-Australiod group (Piggott, 146). These people, havingcurly hair, darker skin, and flatter facial features, resemble the Aborigines of Australia and New Zealand, and have long been considered to have been the original inhabitants of India as well. In Harappa society, these people were probably the main constituents of the lower working classes, just as in today's Hindu society, the lower castes are primarily composed of people belonging to this racial group (Pigggott, 147). Their location on rivers made the cities of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro quite accessible to trade with foreign cultures as we have seen from the evidence just presented. Evidence of trade with Sumer dates from 2300 to 2000 bc or later.While evidence of Harappa goods has been found in Sumerian sites, no such
reciprocal evidence has been found at the Harappa sites, suggesting that the bulk of the Sumerian contribution probably consisted of consumable goods (Piggott, 208-9). Harappa contact with the Hissar III Culture of North Persia has been archaeologically established through the presence
of the previously mentioned, mid-rib lacking spear heads. Additionally, evidence of intermittent contact with the people of the Caucasus and Turkestan has been established through the presence of characteristic bronze pins at Mohrnjo-daro and Harappa (Piggott, 210).

    In conclusion, then, while Harappa Culture may bear the marks of some of its contemporaries, as well as its Aryan conquerors, it was clearly in no way a second-hand culture. It was, in most ways, a truly unique and distinctly Indian culture. Much of the evidence contained in the archaeological remains
reveals the foundation of what may have become modern Hinduism. From the obsession with cleanliness, as exemplified by the baths and drainage systems, to the identification of seals bearing the likeness of Shiva, we see the significant contributions made by Harappa Culture to the formation of Indian culture and Hindu practice of today.


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