Everyday thousands of people pray to God ask for things from him because it makes them feel better about it. For some it's the fear of the unknown. 

There is nothing God can do and the reason is very simple. The reason lies in the relativity and circular logic.

For example let's take us, human beings. We go about doing our own things. Let's say someone sneezes sending particles into the air. Each particle can develop millions of micro organisms within the particle. We cannot go deep into the sub nuclear level to see what goes on in there. There could be civilizations within that particle. There could be an organism which fears God and the god is the human being who sneezed.

In the same way, in the realm of our God, the whole milky way could be a speck of dust particle floating in God's environment. The God Civilization is completely unaware of this speck of dust but this speck of dust contains the whole universe, the whole milky way and the unexplanable void beyond which is just too large for the organisms within that speck of dust to comprehend. We do see how electrons and nucleus acts similar to the solar system so I draw the parallel universe comparision from there.

For each level of God there can be sub level creations and it can go on a circular way till we reach back on the starting God since everything about relative sizes. Relative sizes in one reality may be vastly different in different realities including different time cycles.

In conclusion, since GOD cannot ever experience or observe the minute sub sub atomic existence of their creation, they cannot in any way affect their life cycles. 

So don't worry about God, and enjoy life for what it's worth.

PS: Don't take this too seriously. I just had some time to burn and this thought had been dwelling as a possibility since the god discussion some time back

1)      Did you forsake your position of agnostic theist and came out of closet as an apologist? Your bias for a particular religion had been apparent from the beginning. I don't want to indulge into which movie industry is better based upon your “logical conclusion” (read gut feeling). Nonetheless, I like your analogy of movie industry.  

2)      Argumentum ad populum - I had never heard of it with this name before although reading more I can certainly add it to my repertoire. Still, I can’t fathom in what context you used it. Maybe that was the first result googling “example of fallacy.” Thanks though, finally I had something to learn from you.

3)      Nice that you believe in miracles too. Good luck finding the celestial teapot that revolves round the sun.

4)      I don’t favor any religion and I don’t have a reason to do so. As a non-believer I reject the premise of higher power. Good job turning that against me.  You were the one who was pitting one religion against another. Moreover, cue movie industry analogy right in your first point.

You also said “How does Atheism account for objective morality that which is good for the goose and also good for the gander.” I am afraid you don’t understand objective morality. In fact, unknowingly, you are supporting my stance. Objective morality says a set of morality (immutable) is good for everyone – goose, gander, and gosling included.  

5)      You’re right something doesn’t come from nothing. Then tell me where does your God come from? Who is the creator of your creator- repeat ad nauseam. You said “To attribute life to unconsciousness would be to believe in a miracle even more greater than miracles of religion. My mind cannot comprehend such a miracle because it is unscientific .“ If you’re open and indeed have scientific mind or affinity to science as you claim, read anthropic principle  which is an attempt of science to explain the accommodation of conscious life by Universe. Science still doesn’t know and needs more evidence to support this theory. However, it doesn’t attribute anything that’s not known to a higher power. If it can’t be explained, we need more science not less; and not certainly attribute it to God and layback for the problem to be solved itself or by divine power. Had it been that approach, the modern world wouldn’t have advanced this far.

6)      I am merely suggesting you to pick a proper nomenclature. It does bother me what you believe in as long as you keep it out of my face. You are the one who is going around threads and making assertions.

7)     You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Now you are saying this or that thing can happen. Let me tell you– anything can happen. The day it happens and there is evidence, I am willing to correct myself. Until then, I refuse to do so.

Since you have to defend the God or the higher power, who created this Universe, may not be omnipotent/omniscient because you misspoke or you had no idea it would contradict your belief later, keep on pulling those logic out of your rear. Of course, anything can happen – let me give you a very stupid example: all unsolved theft/murder cases on earth ever was perpetrated by God. Hypothetically, any can happen.

8)      My religion is not atheism. I simply don’t believe in higher power. I only know you from you posts in Sajha. How is my argument ad hominem? I don’t’ know you and your character. All I have been doing is debating your position and your belief. If I ever in future do and call you “wacky” inferring from your posts here in Sajha, you can accuse me indulging in ad hominem. Then I’ll accept it “Guilty as charged.”

This shall be my last post in this thread. Until you research more and bring substance to the table and drop kitchen sink strategy, I refuse to debate on principle.

 Has anyone here watched Paresh Rawal's movie 'Oh my god'?

That movie was full entertainment. :)

haha alternate, you took me to my youth. I remember this little boy who used to run up to me asking for a candy.
I used to give him a candy and he would sing twinkle twinkle little star for me. But while singing, he would wet
his pants and run home crying. You remind me of that little boy.

1) The last time i checked, my passport still says i am a hindu. But in bracket it is written "without ostrich
   mentality". My hindu upbringing made me an honest person so yes, i will support Christianity when the
   context arises.

2) I have used the term argumentum ad populum before in other thread. The alternative term is Appeal to numbers.
   As you admit of not having heard of it before, you need to update yourself. These terms are considered
   elementary in debate vocabulary. Just because something is growing (in this case Atheism), it doesnt make it
   right or proper.

3) Nobody believes in a celestial teapot. If you do then, good luck finding it. That analogy is a stupid attempt
   by an Atheist to discredit theists, just like when they ask Who made god, when the fact remains, noone believes
   in a created god. It is like asking a happy person why he is sad.

4) Atheism cannot account for objective morality as Science cannot guide morality. There is no set of morality
   inherent in nature. Without God as a source, morality would be flexible. Even Nazis could find killing the jews
   moral. Morality that is shaped by culture and traditions will not always be good for everyone. So we do need a
   source for morality. This is a Theist perspective and i do support it.

5) I have looked at every theory on the table. A theory is not a fact and that is why they call it a theory. Even the
   big bang is but a theory. Using the cake analogy, my attempt is to understand who made the cake, not what are its
   ingredients. If you tell me the cake was a result of an unconsciouss, random, blind and automatic process, i had
   rather believe in God.

6) Now where did that you can't have your cake and eat it too come from?. God represents the unknown, so the
   question of his omnipotence/omniscience is moot. What i am saying it that it is not necessary for creation.
   The only time i had my cake and ate it too was on my birthday.

7) You used ad hominem because you called me a liar. The last time i checked, calling someone a liar is making an
   attack on his character.

Freedom2012 you have not answered my simple question to you

Freedom i know you can digress a lot, but let me ask you a simple question. What is the difference between a person praying to god and a dog barking at a tree? 

Rethink that question is like : 
Asking a difference between someone watering plant
VS
someone mannerlessly peeing in the bush?

When comparison(analogy) fails, intention of question looks silly..isn't it?
it seems more like to ridicule than genuinely finding answers and
yet expect to get answer to it.

Of course, if you insist, the "purpose" is the biggest difference out there in both of ours silly comparisons.

Peace :D

 Bittertruth,

My point is that praying to god is same as a dog barking at a tree. Because nothing happens in either case. So it is useless to talk about mighty glory of the lord, who does nothing, who has no impact. Dwelling on the subject of god is a waste of time.

Even if you believe in god, you know that god has not done anything noteworthy since the "creation" which dates back to billions of years. So don't waste your time. ie creation of space and time where galaxies, nebulas and solar systems exists and where life became possible.

Go out and help someone you want to be nice. You don't need religion to tell you hitting someone hurts so its bad. 

@Rethink,

I understand where you are coming from. A dog barks at a tree for a reason. Normally something is up there.
I have never seen a dog bark at a tree without a reason.

But i understand what you are trying to say and that is, it is useless to do both. But i don't think so.
Prayers have been answered in all religions. You hear lots of stories of it. My own life involves a supplication
that was answered. I know it still leaves a lot of gaps to be answered. Prayers are harmless anyways and free.
But it cannot be as simple as "God give me money" and hey bingo you get a million dollar in your account.
Or "God cure all the sickness" and bingo everyone is cured. Or "God give food to the hungry" and bingo everyone
have free food on the table. If you think about it, Society will fail to function if god worked like that.
The society we humans have created makes a living out of sick people, crime, hunger. There will be a chaos in
the whole economic system. We humans have made life this way.
My own belief is that prayers do get answered in God's world. When we humans have changed the way we live,
prayers will be answered. Faith and Love are missing from this world. I also used to think like you until i
realised that we humans have left no space for a loving god. 
 
Religion understands the problems in life through original sin, karma, etc. There is an attempt to understand
the suffering in life. These theories do seem far fetched to a logical mind, but then you try to reason it out
in a spiritual way, these things do make some sense.

Personally, i believe the truth lies in a mix of all these explanations. 

PS: I can just imagine Alternate bro sulking and thinking "there he goes again being agnostic and talking like a theist"...haha

 It surprises me tremendously when certain people think that god has actually made an impact in their lives positively.

Hundreds of thousand of people get killed or murdered. Millions have been killed in wars. The 9 year old Nepali boy was killed in Minnesota 2 days ago for no reason.

Out of all these people, god actually took time out to answer your 'supplication'. Wow you must be a really important person. You must really deserve something good. 

People have been known to lie to themselves (and others) about lot of things to feel good about themselves, and I don't blame you for feeling important. But you need to take things into perspective before preaching about how important you are to your imaginary 'god'.

@ Rethink,
ok let us imagine you are right. All stories of miracles and prayers being answered are fake.
Or simply that they are all coincidences.

Now take a seat and make yourself a cup of tea. Take out a piece of paper and write down in
point form how a loving god fits into this materialistc world. How a loving god by curing
sickness, eradicating poverty, eradicating hunger, eradicating crime, will be beneficial to
this society men has created. If you make an intelligent analysis, you would not want this
loving god to exist!.

We have left no space for a loving god. Answering our prayers is not beneficial for this
society.

 
Loss of life is always sad. But gun was invented by man. And also used by a man. Man is evil.

There is no god--> Name one person who has seen him in person.
There is no heaven--> Name one person who has been there & can tell you what it is like.
There is no hell--> Name one person who has been there and come back to tell you what it is like.

We would all like to believe there is a god but have no proof that he actually heard your prayers and blessed you. There is no solid scientific evidence that it actually did happen. It is all an assumption.

 Freedom2012

You said your own supplication was answered but now,  you go on to say we have left no space for a loving god. 


Looks like you are beginning to contradict your own statements. 

I was playing devil's advocate, agreeing with you on your stand for the sake of debate. As for there being no space, think about those times you have said that there is no space in your tummy to eat more. But surely a hajmola candy could go in right?.

Check out this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O-u9SlnhOo

 Feredom, my friend,  as I mentioned in previous posting you are exposing yourself like Puspa Kamal Dahal, Even if you are cunning and trying to play with words that is not working, Please do not underestimate others, not only those who are replying to you but also who are just reading. Your posting is more like from a guy who wants to make fun of himself.

If you are really serious in discussion, then please do read more. Your logics have circular referrence. 
I remember Colonal gaddafi reading green book (the constitution he imposed on Libiyans) against the rebellians telling them that they will be punished according to the green book. Poor guy failed to understand that ppl were revolting against the green book.

You give analogy ignoring the facts.Playing with words what politicians do. I know during the dark age europe's politics was dominated by Christinas. I didnt realise they still have hangover.

All you have to do is read my post carefully. You will not ask stupid questions.

There is no space for God in this materialistic world at the scale Rethink bro is thinking. Let me give an example.

No Sickness--------->No hospitals---------->No schools (mbbs)--------->No manufacturing companies for medical purpose---->no pharmaceuticals---------->No Drs, Nurses, etc----------------->Unemployment------->economic chaos--------->frustration-------->blame God again.

This is the life man has made. A selfish world out there. That is why before you blame god, blame yourself.


@______,

funny you talked about hangover when you are the one who sounds drunk. That is the most nonsensical post i have read in a while.

 LOl,
you are really a kid arent you, If God existed and had capacity to do that he might have done that long ago. 
If god had capacity to make entire human race follow him he might have done that long ago. 2000 years is a long time man. That is why I said If god can not achieve what he wnated to achieve in 2000 years that is a perfect example of failure. 

That is exactly like Prachanda saying about naya Nepal, If Prachanda was capable of making naya Nepal he could have done in last seven years. They were not able to make a constitution.Now nobody believes Prachanda. Next election Prachands party will be gone.

There are three different levels of paradigm, just an idea(no science, nothing), that I've come up with(don't google anywhere, you won't find it anywhere), it's sort of realization , an epiphany that I had one time when I was in deep state of meditation(some folks usually take me sarcastically when they hear me saying  these things but I don't really care, they've freedom to laugh and ridicule and I laugh with them too). The first lower level or say the very basic layer down, are we humans. These creatures are probably the deadlist one ever in known universe, shrink it down a bit say in a green marble planet called 'Earth' where they feed up on and with every eon spent, done nothing good but used up resources draining 'Earth' from her vital resources and it's still in continuation to this very date but at very alarming accelerated rate. These humans once use to hunt each other with bare hands, lets add ...ahem... with clubs, stones and spears they invented, oh whao.. very intelligent and smart way to kill? right? well.. killing to survive. Thats how we're made by nature. Okay, these are all in Darwin's proposed theory of evolution(I don't believe his theory at all, but so far things he said about prehistoric human species, I do acknowledge those part because lot of excavation findings and research shows, our predatory instinct was so prevalent back in those timeline of our history. But common, from uni-cell creatures, are we really that stupid to think that we came up all the way here now,?? thats a load of bull, those warm pond and geysers still there full of same uni-cell creatures). Oh ya, I was lil offroad and tbh, I loathe my own race. These creatures who after eons later, create rules, living guide books realizing they're social animals and how to live socially, .. fastforward.. becomes holybook, a new sensation or rule is created called 'religion' to tame , to brainwash into believing which is not real. These creatures in different continents spread out, and they do their versions of rule book, they later start to mark the boundaries, lets say territory, even dogs tag it's territory, how come we smart-ass creatures not do. Those marked boundaries/territories become nations, and now they're fighting/killing each other in the name of those territories. They're brainwashed at such level that they think themselves patriotic and religious if they go and kill creatures of other sides. End of first lower level of this paradigm.

Second level of paradigm, this is where all deities,gods of those different group of creatures dwell. They all have GODS or the highest powers of which they swear and get blessings of. Common factor of all these is they're following something very prominent and every group of these creatures has their version of their GOD. I must repeat, common factor is same, the ultimate one. GOD, so, these human-made GODS dwell in this second level of paradigm. I don't wanna be repititive but some primitives thought american flying jets were God. Now, imagine what could be the definition of GOD. It's basic and simple to understand. We were once ancient primitives and it's not hard to comprehend how GOD and religion was born. End of second level of this paradigm.

Third level of paradigm, which I consider is very divine. Just look at us from up above the space, 40,000 miles, do you really think? God has to descend to this extremely insignificant pint size of space rock hurtling to nowhere in this dark void to impress we crazy fools? Think for a sec, that makes all these creatures' GODs unbelievably small, hard to gasp. No offense, that's the reality. This very divine nature of universe, is the master of all plan. How could you not imagine, how did earth has different level of stratospheres? How life started here? How did it even possible that asteroids/comets are burned down before it hit the surface, atmosphere reflect back harmful gamma rays.? How come life is so suitable to sustain here? I know I know.. it all has scientific reasons, various gases, chemicals, gravity and all those things.. I know all those stuff and they're good for reasoning. But at first place, how did it manage to get there in such an orderly manner? That's the divine nature I'm talking about.

If you really need to feel happiness and feel awakened, cut that second level of paradigm out of your way. Connect with divine nature of universe, realize we are just one, one race?? human, home..??  Planet Earth. .. religion?? humanity..

Back to the reality, I hear these noise of patriotism , religion and different kind of race, you and me.. I have no choice but chuckle. How constricted our mindset is ? Still in the box.. :D It's time to get out of the box.

I don't know but people are not even getting a simple concept or they simply do lack intellect(no offence, you could be oblivious) to understand what am saying. Recently they created fully functional bionic man, has artifical organs and works all of it just the way on humans. Whats the difference? ( I asked that earlier too? in the context of dead bodies but readers here are not caring, I think) The essense of life is missing. That very essense which makes you YOU and me ME.  Our very reality from our perspectives(thought, our EYES), that consciousness within each of us, what do you think of that? Isn't that divine? Just try to comprehend it, you'll instantly tune in to your higher self. Forget that middle layer of paradigm, thats the root of all problem.

Believe in divine, we're divine, we're instances of divine.

We just don't know.
I don't follow religion.
Argument about God will never end.
Follow what your heart says. 
We cannot change people and their thoughts. I gave up on this. 
World was like this in the past and will be like this in the future. 
World and the universe is a mystery. There is no straightforward answer. 
Enjoy Earth while we you are here.!!
There might be something like this who knows.

@ BT,

That's a nice read. For evolution, i would agree this much that a species will evolve within the same species to a certain extent but will never evolve from one species to another. I think about 50% of our DNA is same as that of a banana.

____ bro,

What god can do and what god cannot do is unknown. I was merely saying that even if god could actually cure all sickness in this world, by making an intelligent analysis, we see that the end result would still not make humans happy because humans have messed up the meaning of life. Somewhere, we have lost the plot.

If you ask me, what these GODS are, they're anyone but highly advanced beings who dna-coded and dropped us here on earth to see us flourish and live happily, share love and stuff.. rather, it happened opposite, these dropped-off fools started killing each other, too much hatred. It boiled down to such level that those highly advanced ETs had to descend here to teach these fools to share love and live happily. Ask what? These fools twisted the message to rule over their own kind. Seeing all these, probably those ETs up there must have given up, must have sworn never to re-appear to show these fools their way. People are looking at sky looking for ETs, but in fact we're the one , the forsakend lowlife ETs.

Testament of my belief,
Believe it or not, upto you :D 
Be blessed..