There's been quite a few ideas about God that's been floating around human brain. I just wanted to add some thoughts...

The god that seems so vague and unattainable is right in front of our face, but we fail to acknowledge it. It has all characteristics that is attributed to god.

"God knows no boundaries. God is without measure. This attribute by definition impacts all of the others. Since God is infinite, everything else about God must also be infinite."

"God's other attributes of being all-knowing and all-powerful. It makes God absolutely free to do what God knows to be best. God is in control of everything that happens. Man still has a free will, and is responsible for his choices in life."

"God possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. God has never learned and cannot learn. Omniscience means all-knowing. God knows everything, and God's knowledge is infinite. It is impossible to hide anything from God."

"Since God is infinite and since God possesses power, God possesses infinite power. God does allow God's creatures to have some power, but this in no way diminishes God's own."

"God has no beginning or end. God just exists. Nothing else in all the universe is self-caused. Only God.  God always has been and will forever be, because God dwells in eternity. Time is God's creation. "

The above quotes generally symbilized the essence of the mysterious and obscured God which has always been and always will be right in front of our eyes but we fail to acknowledge it.

The entity that meets all the characteristics of God that we have all been frantically searching everywhere is the UNIVERSE.

Universe is without boundary. It is infinite. It is perfect as it creates everything within itself including us. It possesses infinite power. It has no beginning and end. It has always been and will be forever.

Human beings are looking everywhere for a god and fighting wars for their beliefs harming the very earth and atmosphere which are part of the real god, the Universe.

Neo,"Where did this point come from? Did this point have a beginning? They have also put the size of the observable universe at over 50 Billion light years."
Here you go Neo !! http://www.newsweek.com/blockbuster-big-bang-theory-under-scrutiny-due-dust-254598
Here are some pictures of birth of stars and entire galaxies. http://hubblesite.org/gallery/wallpaper/pr1998012b/
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/wallpaper/pr1998012b/

The pictures of birth of stars and galaxies are beautiful. It is like a birth of a human being. Within the universe, stars, galaxies, planets, animals, trees will be born and they will die but what is permanent is the universe which houses everything within it's infinite space.

"Where did this point come from? Did this point have a beginning? They have also put the size of the observable universe at over 50 Billion light years."
Well, if the point has the beginning so should God. Then you say God has no beginning or end. When all logic and explanation fails, God is always there who defies all logic and explanation right?

Lamopuri, what you quoted was in fact to question the validity of the Big Bang according to which the big bang started from one point in space.

The universe is this all encapsulating infinite space without end or beginning within which birth of supernovas, galaxies, planets, animals take place because the universe is characterized by these omniscient potentials.

Perhaps it is even possible that even the big bang theory is accurate but it does not take away the fact that there needed to be infinite space for the big bang to occur.

My posting is in no way to refute anyone's beliefs! but to have a sensible discussion about the possibilities abound :)

Neo, honestly, I believe both these notions are mere speculations that can't be verified. They are both outrageous to say the least.More I think, less I believe that we will ever understand how the universe started and how/who created it. It is one of those things that is better left unexplained.

Those who believe on god and those who believe in science believe in one common thing and that is
There was something before this universe was created

Believers of God believe that there was god before the universe and he created everything else
Believers of Science believe that there was singularity before the universe and Big bang created everything else.

However,
For believers of god to question god is a sin and there is nothing beyond the god, god was the beginning and god is the end sort of dead end.

For believers of science, till date the evidence points towards BB theory as a creator and singularity before that
But that is not the dead end for science, much research going on and if evidence contradicts BB theory and points towards something else, they will accept it so it is open ended concept, new ideas are always welcome.


Now let’s examine the fate of Gods in different human civilization

Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilization

Concept of God, Heaven and hell was there whatever name they had at that time.
As usual at that time too good karma gets you heaven, bad karma gets Hell. Practice of god worship.

What happened to those gods? And worshipers of those god? Those civilizations vanished; those gods are only present in archeological archives. Civilization moved on with new breakthrough. Nothing happened.

One guy named Abraham in Mesopotamia was fed up with the society and its norms at that time. He gathered few people and move to different place. Later established Judaism. Cocept of Heaven hell, Good karma, bad karma was there , they worshiped their god too. But Jews are the people who suffered a lot in Humankind history. And Judaism is barely surviving.

One Jew thought Judaism is not good enough, went on establishing new religion. The religion is Christianity. Christianity is, directly or indirectly responsible for leading humanity from Romans advance civilization into Dark Age of religious blindness. Entire Europe suffered from its dictatorship, Science and technology were banned.
As a result advancement of humankind stalled at least for 500 years otherwise we could have colonise Planet Mars by this time.

European revolted against this. Concept of Renaissance was born. As Christians saw their bleak future in Europe they moved to Asia Europe and African. In those continent indigenous culture were destroyed, ppl were enslaved their land was snatched. Biggest crime against humanity was committed in non war situation. Till date they are creating new division in society by converting faith of other people.


And what is the situation of Christianity these days? Although they claimed to be the world’s largest religion based on the number of follower’s about 68% of the World’s population don’t follow it. And remaining 32 % followers too there are many who were converted using money power not by volunteer conversion

So how can be a god be great. Actually it is responsible for human misery.


And three way war among Christianity, Islam and Judaism is making it a source of confrontation rather than a source of salvation.

Now about Islam, by action Islam is the most controversial religion. Although they claim Islam is about peace majorities of countries following Islam are involved in endless war. Give them a choice 50% of the Muslims will chose not to follow Islam.
With present practice Islam could never be a dominant religion. So where is the Universality of the god which Muslim believed does exists? And after 1500 yrs of inception only 23% of world’s population is following it.

So for Christianity with all money and muscle power, 2000 yrs and less than one third population following it, then where is its universality?
If a god can not be universal after 2000 yrs of existence and money and muscle power than such god can not be universal. This situation is against the omnipresent and omnipotent concept about the god.

Yes you can boast about your believe but data shows majority of the population is outside the so called major faith.
I will touch Hinduism and Buddhism next time
To be continued

Now about Buddhism,

Buddha never said he is the messenger of the god and if you don’t follow him you will go to hell. He also said don’t worship his idol but follow his teaching if you want peace and Nirvana. But look at Buddhist instead of following his teaching they worship his idol and there is tantric Buddhism too which is not Buddhism at all.
So Buddhism has taken totally different way than what Buddha thought (as in other religion)


About Hinduism

Many literatures are available in Hinduism so it will take lots of discussion to come to conclusion but I will try to summarise.

One thing very clearly stated in Hinduism is that God can not make you immortal so god is not omnipotent

What happened to Mahadev who lived in Himalayas , Hinduism does not record the death of Mahadev but these days we can't see him. He must be dead then.

And regarding 33 cror Devta, that concept is totally misunderstood I will try to elaborate this somewhere else later). So what happened to those Devta ? All dead no?

The fight between Devta and Danab happened on Earth, In some cases Devta were about to lose war, with the help of Mahadev /Bisnu/Durga they won war. This happened in Satyaug. What happened to the King of devta, the Indra ? Where is he now a days Hinduism does not record the death of Indra nor his ascension to heaven. He is dead too.

If Satyaug was the best, no crime, no nothing then why could not it continued forever?
Read the books you will find many wars which were fought in Satyayug , If it was the best then why war?

Satyayug collapsed and so did the Devtas of Satyaug. I don’t have to elaborate on the legends of Dwaper and Treta yug. Their death is well recorded in books. Again same question If dwaper and Treta yugs were better than why they collapsed?

All these books indicated those who lived have to die. There is no immortality and god can not make you immortal. But looking at the pace at which artificial organs are being developed in 100 yrs time science will be able to make humans immortal by replacing defect organs and keeping intact the memory and conscience. According to Hinduism you are your conscience so if your conscience is kept intact it does not matter whatever organs you have, you will be the same person. My gestimate is in 100 yrs time scientists will be able to do that.

Why God need to create life? If it was his design then why only on earth in our solar system? And not even simple life on other planets?

Scientists have predicted that, there is no life in next closest solar system

Non existence of life in many planets around us and in many other solar system indicates that life on earth was mere an accidental action of natural forces (Physics /Chemistry /Mathematics). Accidents are rare, and existenance of life also seems to be rare.


If we read the human history, Human started to ponder about god from the dawn of the civilization say approximately 5000 years ago.

The concept of the god mainly based on
Where we came from?
Who created us?
Who created our surroundings?

As the civilization grew, society used the concept of god to manage the society
like using it as carrot and stick principle

If you don’t do good (good as in the norms of society at that time) you will be punished, god will send you to hell after you die.

If you do good you will in heaven where everything is available for you (this indicate that the "everything" was not easily available in ancient time)
So humans created a powerful entity to rule the unruly.

Now, back to your concept: accepting the Universe as a god
Yes you can accept Universe as a god, or the Singularity which existed before the universe as god unless and until you belief does not go against the present day law and norms. If your belief does not harm others then you can believe what you want to believe.
But accepting Universe as a god you have to understand that
1. Your prayer (if you are planning to do one) will not be listened ( unless you bestowed listening power to the universe)
2. You will not saved from unfortunate events ( Unless you illusion yourself about this power of the universe)
3. You will not be immortal ( Unless you bestowed this power to the Universe)
4. It will not take you to heaven ( Unless you bestowed this power to the Universe)

But why you need a god which can not do anything as expected from the conventional god to you? Just as an imaginary friend?
It’s like kids holding Teddy (or something similar) even during the sleep. Teddy wont be able to do anything for the kids but if you take teddy away  they cry. This one way love of kids for Teddy is amazing.
May be you needed something to hang on

Nas, that's the reason why Big Bang is difficult to believe. Big Bang is supposed to be a scientific explanation and it does not have any believable assumption or proofs. For example it says big bang originates from an entity with infinity density but zero volume. In general scientific terms density means the mass inside a unit volume but this concept of singularity refutes the general definition to a point that the whole scenario is make-believe at best because there is no other theories.

A person of science believing in big bang is the same as a religious person believing in god - both for the same reason - because there is no other believable explanations :) so you take a leap of faith to believe all the jargon.

Obviously life is a journey for everyone, for some it's more materialistic and for some it's spiritual and for some it's a combination of little bit of everything there is. There is definitely no right way to do it. It's special for everyone and everyone finds their own calling, explanation and understanding of it all. Whatever it is, I think coming to your own understanding and realization of what it's all about helps in liberating yourself from the impermanence of it all. You liberate yourself from the impermanence by realizing the impermanence of it all. The outcome is always a cumulative understanding from the building blocks of information one accumulates along their own personal journey.

People are always carrying unresolved equations in their head. May it be of personal relationships, finances, fame, beauty, passion or creation. Some equations get resolved some don't, but if the master equation is resolved then others don't matter as much.

Here's to resolving or resolved personal equations. Cheers :)


PS: _____ I will take some time to digest your post and get back to you

किमावरीवः कुह कस्य शर्मन्नम्भः किमासीद्गहनं गभीरम् ॥१॥

Did not the cosmic waters pervade dark and deep !.

आनीदवातं स्वधया तदेकं तस्माद्धान्यन्न परः किं चनास ॥२॥

Apart from morphogenetic BrahmAn , there was none !

तुच्येनाभ्वपिहितं यदासीत् तपसस्तन्महिनाजायतैकम्

Burst forth in glory self excited by intent


Have witnessed the conscious equation between matter and energy


An oblique ray cut Being from Non-being . 

को अद्धा वेद क इह प्र वोचत् कुत आजाता कुत इयंविसृष्टिः

I think this discussion is done. Ujl just quoted the verses from the book itself....the book itself guys!! If it's written in the book, then it's true.

On a different note, Ujl, I enjoyed reading your discussion on consciousness. Why don't we have a spiritiual, non-religious, discussion on that; perhaps in a different thread?

Neo dai, big bang is not a belief.
Lemme mention something. Every matter is made up of atoms.
You and me are atoms at minuscule level. Do you know why
atoms in us are together giving us mass whereas there are atoms
all over with no mass? Scientists haven given
it a name called 'Higgs Boson' that is giving atoms a mass. They
also call it 'God Particle'. They tried to find it during experiment done
on Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland. Experiment was semi-success.
Universe as we see is indeed an end result of massive atomic collision
that we like to call it as big bang. All this expansion of universe is somewhat
similar to ripples when you drop a pebble in a pond. But the fact is it also
is going to contract, if so universe we know today may not exist. For now we're
seeing universe in as ever expanding state. No doubt about it.
Among other things, there are so many things Science can not answer and
it was the question—what was there before big bang?
So far whatever science has discovered, it's proven and based on facts. I may
not really count on their estimate with full confidence but they're always right on it.
If earth didn't exist 14 billion years ago, I may not believe their estimate of exact
14 billion years but I may believe their findings that at some point earth certainly
wasn't there.

Someone posting here verses from man-made books, now I call it belief and faith.
Before Galileo, everyone believed earth was flat. Religious faith is somewhat like
that notion 'earth was flat' — a faith, a belief.

@ Kiddo.... I put that verse from the Vedas just to show that our forefathers were deep thinkers. They were not just cowherds! Look at the last verse; they have asked questions about the God themselves ! Who are they? Where did they come from if such God exist? They were not blind followers of scriptural authorities. Such a profound thinking !The verses above is for you to observe and analyze. Always remember, true knowledge only comes through direct experience. You cannot understand Vedas until and unless you experience it. I am not saying that blindly follow whatever scriptures says. The Vedic text itself says, Vedas are merely sounds and sounds are gibberish !! All sound gets meaning when we give meaning to them. Therefore, one must move beyond sound. However, sound is of great importance. If there is sound, there is also the source of that sound. By following the roaring sound of Ocean, you will one day reach the Ocean. Once you reach the Ocean, you will understand everything about that sound. Similarly, Scriptures are there to show you the way, they are not the ultimate reality.

Swami Venkatesananda said, "It is very hard to teach a learned person." You (Kiddo) were the only one who read my consciousness topic above. Neo is busy talking about Universe and God ! I asked Neo one question but he does not dare to answer my question. I want to ask this question again: Can anything exist outside of Consciousness?

You might feel like you're sitting still - but you're actually moving through the universe at an insane speed.
Need proof universe is not expanding?

Ujl, I know you lack debating power to me, so you've been ignoring my comments. To your question, can anything exist outside of Consciousness?
Lemme give you an example, there were myriads of sensational "end of the world" propagandas spread just in last century. I must say over 8 so called 'end of the world' supposed events are dated. Nothing happened. But there were fools who committed suicide in their false beliefs that indeed the world is gonna end. World didn't end but their consciousness, they ended. Dart back to time right now, our consciousness here, everything intact—reality unchanged. So, can anything exist out of Consciousness? Yes, everything exists outside your consciousness.

If you are talking about one's perspective, don't start , I can get whole lecture on  your level of consciousness i.e your awake state, subconscious and deep true consciousness and how we transist to and fro. Don't even try to bring religion in it. :D

When your views are polluted by certain beliefs, how can you be your true self ? You think because of what they think. Be free from all brainwashing, try to figure things yourself, meditate and you shall discover your innate innerself, true self. I think that's what a brilliant spiritual being  such as Siddharta Gautama was once trying to tell us some 2000 years ago. But fools started worshipping him. After all such fools are still abundant who lines up seeing so called milk in the stone. Everytime you see some godly pictures posted on some walls or frames, sitting closed eyes cross-legged, it's not asking you to worship it, it's asking you to follow that posture, sit, cross-legged and close your eyes. That's it.

But again,  I know you are going to flip pages of book, find some verses or mantra and post it here which is meaningless for spiritually awakened. I've no intention to demean any religion — spirituality is the window to know yourself, religion is just another name for spirituality created by humans for their own interest and selfishness.

Most people turn to religion to resolve the master equation that gnaws in their mind regarding creation and life.

For different people, different religions resolve their master equations. Most people are born into religion and they embrace the religious master equation as their own.

In spite of there being many blue prints (religious theories) to resolve the master equations, for most people, resolving the master equation will depend on their own personal experience and understanding.

Another name for universe is possibilities. It's the possibilities that are available in the universe which come to fruition to make any major events take place as they have. Hence, there is no one right way to live your life. You can choose to follow the Veda as your holy grail or you can choose to follow the holy grail as your Veda. At the end of the day, as long as your individual fingerprint (self) resolves the master equation either through Veda, Qoran, Bible, or by your own interpretation and belief of the infinite universe without beginning or end, the path you take does not matter.

The problem with religion is that they are very restrictive. Each religion tends to promote themselves; and also the fact that - there is much to gain socially and financially using or abusing religion - has not helped in keeping religion to be unrestrictive doorways to resolving your own personal master equation.

Just like it's easy to understand that our human science does not have the capability to explain what happened 14 billion years ago (Just google "problems with big bang theory" and you will see thousands of science related sites which show why you need to have that *leap of faith* to believe in it blindly), just like it's easy to follow religious dictates blindly without asking why or how, it is relatively easy to believe that perhaps there doesn't really exists a God that has been personified and and glorified by human beings for thousands of years, and that the higher power they have been looking for is just the universe of possibilities.

So, Ujl, Nas, Bittertruth, I do not disagree with your right to believe in your own resolution of your master equation when you insert your personal key fingerprint (self) of your cumulative experience and understanding into the respective Veda, or belief of choice! You are all correct in your own interpretations. What I would suggest is perhaps you can be a little flexible in your beliefs because the Universe is a universe of possibilities and anything is possible. I'm not saying you are but just in case you are :)

@ Bittertruth..... First of all Happy Dashain to you. I read your comments and your comments are making me smile ! Your proof is not even scientific ! You gave me some stories and at the end you said, yes, everything exist outside of consciousness.This doesn't prove anything. In fact, this is so childish !!

If everything exist outside of consciousness, then who is watching all this? Who is typing all these words in Sajha? Who is becoming aware of that Dashain do exist in Nepal? Where does mathematics exist? Have you ever seen a real number 1 somewhere hanging around in your garden?

Come of with scientific explanation. Also, ignoring your comments doesn't mean I lack debating power. Sometimes, it is better to be silent.

Hey Bitter
I have found many of my views match yours. But don't you feel your last post reeks of arrogance a tad? If I know about a subject, I wouldn't be boasting on it or put anybody down with it. Hope you don't take this personally and just as a generic suggestion. I know I am on the same boat with my last post, perhaps this post is for both you and I.

It's nice to read different views on different arguments but when somebody gets arrogant, the value of the post just takes a nosedive. I find it interesting to read what you write and hope to see more of it, just with a little humility perhaps?

I'm chill bros.
Don't worry :D

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11143875/Prof-Brian-Cox-Theres-a-naivety-in-saying-there-is-no-God.html

https://youtu.be/-MmWeZHsQzs

Interesting views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNjEbPfc2d0