More pictures. . .

Newuser,
I am willing to hear your point of view. Why don't you answer my simple question: Ok let's say King G walks out. What then? What are you blabbering about on how to get Nepal on track minus the corruption minus the maoists. How?

Even tho I support the kings move, I don't support slogans like 'raja hamro desh pran bhanda pyaro chha'. He is just another human being and needs to be treated like one.

Poonte you say, "Democracy is NOT a package that can be delivered once a dictatorial individual decides that "his" people are ready for it -- it is a continuing PROCESS in which it corrects itself of it's misgivings. "

There is such a thing as a downward spiral. The politics of Nepal kept on degenerating to a point that Maoist kept getting stronger and stronger and would have infiltrated the capital and taken over if someone didn't stand up. The problem was and is that democracy is not a self correcting process as you have theoretically claimed. We don't have any good politicians. I'm not a blind supporter of the king. In politics you have to choose the better of all available options and right now I don't see any better options. Do you?

Newuser,

Thank you. Your presence in Sajha with your relentless advocacy for a thoughtful rectification of our democracy at this confusing time is itself refreshing and inspiring. Keep up the good work, Sir.

**************

Saroj and thag,

I am not defending the 'offensive' style of the writer. If the material is too offensive to you, ask San to delete it. I will have no problem with that.

If your displeasure is not with the style, but with the content, you can still request to San if you think it is worthy of being deleted.

On the bigger question of democracy, I agree that reversal of the royal coup (both of the initial and full versions) alone is not going to do anything, if that is what you meant by 'walk out'. If the King agrees for a republic setup and preferrably launches his own political party, everything will have ways to be rectified.

few ppl have their heads full of crap.. heheeheheh!!!!

He he he he he he ....I did not understand anything...coz i did not read anything..he he he he he

Democracy???
freedom of speech: ...remember gyanendra khadka... the journalist was who murdered

by the maoists....remember the president of the maoists victims association who was gunned down.

right to security: people were either killed by RNA or the Maoists

right to own property: maoists were busy consficating land from landowners.

access to judiciary: people were kidnapped by RNA or Maoists and were kept in detention for periods more than 3 months, in some cases they were not before a judge.

elections: leaders were shit scared to go for elections, because they didnt want to turn up dead like thousands of their party workers. they also knew they were very very unpopular.

parliment: deuba dissolved parliment in a show of upmanship against girija.

judiciary: toooooo slowwww to do anything.....

Corruption: without paying money under the table the files in the ministry didnt move fwd.

so the king didnt usurp any system.....he usurped a broken system

Nepe,
I was not wildly speculating the guy on red shirt. We were answering his questions about the peace rally and I know that's him. I can understand why doesn't want to defend his article. He must have realized that he can do better than that. Fine.

I, however, was speculating that he must be your buddy and thanks for admitting. He also mentioned above that he was not a part of the rally. I know only supporters and reporters were there. If the above article is not his then we should wait to read his piece of work. I'm assuming he was not there just to have some fun!

I heard him reporting on Radio Dovaan on that day. If any of you are inerested, here is the link:
http://www.radiodovaan.com/
Just click on the icon next to "03/13/2005".

Hi! Ram Kharel,

You have been doing tremendously good for Nepalese Community, Your works
have been praised by all Nepalese ! Keep on doing good job

Dodhare,

Let me get your logic straight.

You talked to a guy at the rally.
The guy was doing some reporting.
Therefore the guy you talked to wrote the article above.

Huh?????????????????

By the same logic:

You once met a right-wing politician.
George Bush is a right-wing politician.
Therefore you met George Bush.

Or ...

Ram Kharel reported on the rally.
Someone wrote the post above, regarding the rally.
Therefore it must be Ram Kharel.

(For the record, this is here for absurdity's sake. Obviously he didn't.)

Hey, maybe, try this one. Maybe Poonte was at the rally! So we can do this "logical construction:"

Poonte disagrees with you.
Someone who disagrees with you wrote that article.
Therefore Poonte wrote the article.

How many more examples of bad conclusions from flawed facts do you want? The point is obvious. Please don't throw around accusations unless you really know. The guy you're accusing of writing the article didn't write it any more than Ram Kharel or Poonte did, so stop libeling.

Dodhare ji,

I don't know if you really don't know him or are just pretending not knowing him. He is one of the who's who from the Nepali community of DC in terms of social activities in the community and philanthropic work in Nepal, happens to be a renowed poet with several well-received books to his credit (his peers often criticize his poetry for being too intellectual ! ). A very frank intellectual with unshakable faith in democracy and freedom. It's my honor to have a friendship with him.

On the day, he was reporting live (?) to the Radio Dovaan at Virginia as KaliG said.

He does write in local papers. Some manuscript might still be on the table of The Kathmandu Post editorial room if the army have not destroyed them.

So keep watching for his future articles, if you are interested to know more.

Nepe

Nepe,
I have been a passive reader for a while and it seems like there are times when you think logically but most of the times you thoughts are just plain outright stubbon. Yes, we need people to like you that openly voice their agreements/disagreements so that we can can learn from each other. But like Ashu said if there is someone who does not think like you you dont seem to spare any words for that person. (You may say Ashu does the same but his tone of voice is a lot milder than it used to be). A couple of months back you drove someone out of this forum by naming them publicly. Now I dont think your intensions were to desprive us readers of his writings was it? And I dont think you want a forum where people are just going to agree with everything you say?

First of all, thank you for all those who defended me. I am writing here to dispell the myth that the article was written by me. Anybody who knows me also knows that I would not write something crappy like that.

I was there and I did have conversations with many people there. Apparently one of them has the alias of Dodhare. Ram Kharel asked me if I supported the king or if I welcomed the king's move, and I said no. If he broadcast that on Sunday, you would be able to see that as well. One thing that you need to be careful, Dodhare, is don't assume just because I disagree with you, and just because I had asked you hard questions, you and your fellow rallyers for the king should be making the judgment that I wrote the article. Many of the people I spoke to there are people I know, and we have sat down in public forums, talked, and shared ideas. Do you think that just because they sincerely believe in the king's move, and I do not, that I would go and slam them disrespectfully? Morally that is unacceptable for me, let alone me writing that. I don't come hiding under some alias names and slander people. If I am critical, I do use my real name. You can read my articles in Nepali Post, which make my opinions clear.

You have said you are waiting for my piece to appear. I may write something about the rally, but if I do, it will not come anonymously in the form of tabloid journalism.

Just from the fact that I oppose the king's move and was there, you must feel what my convictions are, and that I'm not afraid to be public. I also was pleased to see that people at the rally, even though I disagreed with them, were not mostly confrontational. The important thing about democracy and free speech is willingness to accept your opponent's viewpoint as legitimate opinion and engage in conversation where disagreements can be engine for productive resolutions of difficult situations and eventualities, and not reasons to slander people or imprison them or censor newspapers and so on. I will always defend democracy and freedom, no matter where I am. But not in the form of insult.

I wasn't offended because you posted my picture, but you posted my picture for the wrong reason, and for your own wrong judgment. If you really want to discuss these things, I am always available, and you know who I am.

Nepeji,
I am no coward, if I happen to see you personally, I would introduce myself to you and say it your face. and yes I live on the DC beltway in maryland. You can see me at many functions held at DC metro area, I am an active participent, I am always open for discussions face to face,..... like everyone is saying to you....... and think... why do you have to say???????????---->mero goru ko sorahai ana......


like most of the readers are getting your point and understanding, it would be nice of you to do the same to others, and if you think sajha is nothing but wussywassy, why are you here writing??????

Nepe,

My point was simple: Just as you have every right to go run your politically charged julus in any peaceful manner, others (who hold diametrically opposite views) too have every right to do their rallies and julus in a peaceful manner.

Democracy, of which you wish to be a champion, is all about learning to tolerate people who hold views that "disappoint" and may even "offend" you (without your resorting to, say, kill them.)

Personally, I am not surprised that you hid behind someone else's stupid writing to
score your political point . . . so that when push came to shove, you knew that you'd
be able turn around and say, "Look, it wasn't me, I am only the messenger", and get away with that flimsy an excuse. which you did.

But, let's face it, that's a nice trick, and the trouble is with it is that most people
can see throught it right away!!

You have characterized the rally as a "pro-coup" rally. Such a label serves YOUR purpose in a narrow black-and-white sense, but does not do justice to the
apparently DIVERSE motivations of the participants.

Some went there to cheer for the King (doing so is neither criminal nor illegal!); others wanted to push for better law and order situation; still, others joined for peace, while
a few might have gone for purely social reasons, and so on and on.

This is just one example.

But when you insist on (REPEATEDLY) spraying those who offend your (apparently
very fragile) sense of politics with the same colour, all that does at the end is NOT inspire much confidence in your professed pro-democracy stance.

Tetti ho kura.

******

Personally and honestly, had I been in DC, I would NOT have gone to that rally for
the SIMPLE reason that such rallies -- no matter whose sides they are on -- are no
more than 'beauty contests' for certain groups of Nepalis in America to show one another who's more democratic than the other . . . Such 'beauty contests' may be
good for individuals' ego, but they achieve nothing of substance in Nepal.

oohi
ashu

yo neprya nepe,

ta m00ji kina neprayra kura garchau bhanya. ta m00ji maoist atankabaadi ko supporter hosh bhandai ma sabai maoist ko supporter huncha ta? anee tero maoist lay kayhee panee garnay wala chaina. rally ma gayata kay bhayo, tailay g00la garchash. ta dc ma baschash bhanay, ta sanga bhet ta bhaihalla nee anee m00ji raksi khayera guff maroola. sajha ma ayera guff dino bhanda m00ji kaam gar.

userfromdc जी,
त्यसरी ठाडो भाषा पनि सकेसम्म प्रयोग नगरम्। किनभने साझालाई सबैले त्यती तल्लो स्तरले लिएको छैन।

जहाँसम्म विषय बस्तुको कुरा छ, नेपे जीले जुन समाचार यहाँ टाँस्नू भो त्यसको स्तर न्युन भएको कारणले नै यी यती कुरा निस्केका हुन्।
धेरै जना कै सहभागिता भएछ, शान्ति -यालीमा । शान्तिको पक्षमा उत्रिदा खेरि "मण्डले" भनेर आरोप लगाउनु पनि युक्तिसगंत हुँदैन। यसलाई पनि कसरी लिने, कसरी परिभाषित गर्ने भन्ने कुरा मात्र फरक हो।
देशलाई अहिलेको स्थितिबाट निकास दिई शान्ति स्थापना गर्न राजाको नेतृत्व अथवा भनौँ अग्रसरताको आबस्यक छ, यो कटु सत्य हो र माओबादीले पनि बुझेकै यथार्थ हो।
जब कि माओबादीले माग गर्दै आएको सम्बिधान सभामा मन्जुर हुन वा नहुन कोहि पनि प्रधानमन्त्रीसित अधिकार नै छैन।
अबको शान्ति वार्ता भनेको राजासित सिधै हुन्छ ढिलो होस् या छिटो। यसका लागि मध्यस्तकर्ताको आबस्यकता त अपरिहार्य छ, जुन कुरा अघिल्ला असफल शान्ति वार्ताहरुले पनि देखाइसकेका छन्।
केबल बिदेशी सहयोग बन्द गर्दा माओबादीहरु बलियो हुँदै जान्छ र देशमा झन भन्दा झन आतंकबादले ग्राह्ता पाउँछ। त्यो नहोस् भन्नका लागि यो -याली र यसले पेष गरेको ज्ञापनपत्र अनोचित भन्दै पेष गर्नेहरुले नेपालको झण्डा बोके भन्दैमा "मण्डले" भन्दै हिड्न नमिल्ला जस्तो लाग्छ।

I agree with dadagiri in this one.

First of all, it does not make sense to blame anybody being as Mandale for supporting king's move. In the same way I do not think everybody who is talking about republican govt is maoist. The blame game going here is really stupid.

But I want to stress a fact that calling for republicanism wihtout considering pros and cons is not rational. I think republicanism will bring maoism in the current context. I do not think its practically possible for a republican govt with multi party democracy in the current context. King will not be willing to give away thrown. Current poltical parties have lost their trust for a effective mass movement.

For me in the current context, if the poltical parties have learnt their mistakes, they should mend their ways. Help to bring corrupt in justice and make a leadership change. These leaders should go to the public to gain public trust. They should work on trust building rather than anything else.

As far as king is concerned, I still beleive he will have to go back for multiparty democaracy. Instead of us fighting with each others we should work together so that this transistion takes place quickly and effectively. But I really wish that before king goes being constitutional monarch, corrupt leaders be prosecuted and taken action.

Some will raise the question of current leaders in the power. When new leadership will be in power, action could be taken against them too.

Democracy is a self correcting mechansim only if it is implemented properly. We should have straong framework with controls placed to avoid deficciency. I do not beleive we had true democracy. I did not really feel my rights were secured at that time. Instead I felt more insecured, frusstated. Not a single work could be done without corruption. Not only that the thugs, gangsters were in supreme power. Just look at Milan Chakre - UML affiliated gangsta, Deepak Manage - RPP affiliated and so on.

Right now atleast in KTM, there is little security. Low extortion and corruption, and others.

I really believe we need to bring maoists in the negotiating table first. All the parties should cooperate in this one and get a way out of this cancer.

To end, Nepe bro I do not have any harsh feelings against U. U wrote u r thoughts in this forum. SO did I. But personally I felt u start attacking any criticism. But U know that only when people raises questions, then they are willing to change.

I wish for Nepal to be peaceful so thst I am not afraid of going back and plan my future there.

Highfly for peace in Nepal

Hom Raj ji,
You came here with your real name and denied writing the crappie article. I have every reason to believe you. I was not supposed to post your picture and drag you to this discussion. Even though I'm using a nickname to post my message, I heard your reaction and realized that it was a poor judgment in my part. I'm the guilty party and please accept my sincere apology. However, my comments remain intact to the real writer.

जानु भन्दा अगाडि म के भन्न चाहन्छु भने तपाईले राखेका कडा प्रश्न चै फरक ढंगले हेर्यो भने कडा हुंदैनन्। म फेरी ती प्रश्नहरु आफै यहां नलेखुं होला। तर तपाईले यहां राख्नु भएमा मेरो हेराई जरुर बताउनेछु।

मेरो बिचारमा हरेक नेपाली (राजा, नेता, कार्यकर्ता, साधारण नागरिक) ले आफूले गरेका क्रियाकलापले हाल र भविश्यमा हाम्रो देश र त्यहांका जनतालाई कस्तो असर पर्छ भन्ने बुझ्नु जरुरी छ। हामीमा आफ्नो उद्देश्य प्राप्ति गर्न जेसुकै गर्ने प्रवृत्ति छ। यहां म के देख्छु भने मान्छेहरु आफ्नो विश्वास सधै अटल राख्न खोज्छन् चाहे त्यो कुनै वादप्रति होस, राजाप्रति होस या आफ्नो पार्टीप्रति। आफू आफ्नो विचारबाट डगमगायो भने आफ्नो वैज्जत भएको ठान्छन्। त्यस्तो कायमै रह्यो भने मिलन चै कुन विन्छुमा गएर हुने? त्यसैले आफ्नो अडानको केन्द्र विन्दु त देश हुनु पर्छ कुनै ब्यक्ति या पार्टी हैन।

हो, आज देशमा राजाले जुन कदम लिएका छन म त्यो कुरामा गर्व गर्दिन। तर यसमा राजाको मात्र चै पक्कै दोष छैन। अझ ठूलो चित्र हेर्ने हो भने त्यो नै आजको सबैभन्दा ठूलो समस्या हैन र प्रजातन्त्र प्राप्तिको लागि लडाई लड्नु पर्ने आजको पहिलो आवश्यकता पनि हैन भन्ने मलाई लाग्छ। उदाहरण दिनु पर्दा मेरो ब्यक्तिगत विचारमा अमेरिकाले गोला बारुदको बिचमा लादेको इराकी प्रजातन्त्र भन्दा सद्दाम हुसेनको सैनिक सासन नै जनताका लागि सुखमय थियो कि जस्तो लाग्छ। फेरी प्रजातन्त्र भन्ने शब्दै यस्तो रैछ कि त्यसलाई जसले पनि आफ्नो हितको लागि प्रयोग गर्न सक्ने। माओवादीले प्रजातन्त्रको विगुल फुकेका कयौ उदाहरण हाम्रा सामु छन् भने सत्ता बाहिर पुग्नेको त यो एउटा शस्त्र नै हो। म प्रजातन्त्र शब्दसंग डराउनुको कारण केवल यति मात्र हो।

आजको सबैभन्दा ठूलो आवश्यकता त शान्ती हो र शान्ती प्राप्त गर्न राजासंग हात मिलाउनु पर्ने मैले ठानेको छु। किनभने शान्ती कि त सम्झौताबाट आउंछ कि त युद्धबाट एउटा शक्ति परास्त हुनै पर्छ। सम्झौता गर्न अहिले माओवादीलाई सबभन्दा फाईदाजनक छ। किनभने माओवादीले तल्लो स्तरका जनताको जतिसुकै कुरा गरेपनि सत्ताप्राप्ति उनीहरुको उद्देश्य हो। राजनैतिक पार्टीहरुसंग सम्झौता गर्दा श्रेय पनि पार्टीहरुलाई नै जान्छ। त्यसैले राजासित सिधै बार्ता गर्न खोजेको माओवादी सर्त सर्वबिदितै छ। र यदि युद्धबाटै सत्ताप्राप्ति गर्ने हो भने पनि अब समय खेर नफाले हुन्छ। त्यसैले राज्य शक्ति र माओवादी शक्तिमा अहिले केन्द्रित हुनु पर्छ। प्रजातान्त्रिक शक्ति जस्तै माधव नेपाल, गिरिजा या कुनै पार्टीका नेतालाई प्रधानमन्त्री बनाएर समस्या समाधान हुंदैन भन्ने सिद्ध भैसकेको छ। अब चुनाव गराएर मात्र अधिकार हस्तान्तरण हुनसक्छ। र बिना शान्ती चुनाव हुंदैन भन्ने पनि स्पष्ट भैसक्यो। त्यसैले प्रजातान्त्रिक लडाई अर्को विकल्प हैन र त्यसले समस्या सुल्झिदैन पनि। प्रजातन्त्रको लडाईमा मेरो दिलचस्वी नहुनुको कारण पनि यति नै हो। तर जब शान्ति स्थापना हुन्छ, सही प्रजातन्त्रको कुरामा हामी जरुर केन्द्रीत हुनु पर्छ।

त्यसैले मैले राज्य शक्ति र माओवादी शक्तिलाई तौलेर हेरें कि कसले देशमा शान्ती चांडो दिन सक्छ? सबैभन्दा राम्रो त सम्झौता नै हो तर त्यो नभएको खण्डमा माओवादीको शक्तिको समीक्षा हुनु जरुरी छ। के सांच्चै उनीहरु राज्य शक्तिलाई परास्त गर्न सक्षम छन्? मेरो बिचारमा त्यो असम्भव छ। किनभने पहिलो कुरा त उनिहरुको सैन्य शक्ति बीबीसि ले जनाए अनुसार १० हजारको हाराहारीमा मात्र छ। देशको शक्तिलाई परास्त गर्न त्यो संख्या अति नै न्यून हुन जान्छ। त्यही कारणले होला माओवादीहरुले अहिले सम्म एउटा दुर्गम जिल्लाको सदरमुकाम पनि १२-२४ घण्टा भन्दा बढी कब्जा गर्न सकेका छैनन्। त्यसैले देश लिने माओवादी सपना दूर मात्र हैन कि असम्भव छ भन्ने स्पष्ट छ। तर त्यो हतियारधारी संख्या हाम्रो जस्तो बिकट र गरीब देशमा आतंक मच्चाउन सफल हुनु कुनै अनौठो हैन। कुनैपनि सरकारले सबैलाई सुरक्षा दिन सक्दैन र असुसक्षित जनताले हतियारधारीको बिरुद्ध नजानु नै बुद्धिमत्ता हुन्छ। जो चुप लागेर बस्न सक्दैन त्यो मर्छ या विस्थापित हुन्छ। १० हजारको संख्याले देशको ८०% भाग आफ्नो कब्जामा छ भनेर दाबी गरिनुको पछाडि पनि यही कारण हो। यो केही आश र बढी त्रासको माओवादी शक्ति बढेर या घटेर जान्छ भन्ने त समयले नै देखाउने कुरा हो तर उनिहरु सफल हुंदै गएमा युद्ध जित्न लायक हुन अर्को १०-२० बर्ष लाग्ला भन्ने मेरो अनुमान हो। सम्झौताबाट शान्ती स्थापना भयो भने कमसेकम त्यो लामो समय युद्धको तयारिमा त बिताउनु पर्दैन। हाम्रा छिमेकी मुलुकहरु आउंदो १५-२० बर्षमा सर्बशक्तिमान राष्ट्र हुने समाचार आउंछ तर हाम्रो बिडम्वना अर्कै छ।

मैले अघि नै भने हाम्रो हरेक निर्णयको केन्द्रविन्छु हाम्रो देश नेपाल हुनु पर्छ। हाम्रा नेताहरु आफ्नो लक्ष पूरा गर्न जे गर्न पनि तयार हुन्छन्। कोही त भारतमा हात पसार्न पुगिसके। उनीहरु आफ्नो महत्वाकांक्षा पूरा गर्न देशलाई नै बाजी राख्दैनन् भनेर भन्न सक्ने स्थिति पनि छैन। त्यसैले कतै हाम्रो देशमा विदेशीको हस्तक्षेप पो हुने हो कि या देश बिखण्डित पो हुने हो कि भन्ने डर मलाई छ। अब यो कसरी हुन सक्छ?

- यदि शान्ती स्थापनाको लागि राष्ट्रिय र अन्तरराष्ट्रिय क्षेत्रबाट राजालाई कमजोर बनाईयो भने माओवादी बलिया हुन सक्छन्। माओवादी बलियो हुनु भनेको बढी युद्ध हुनु हो, बढी मान्छे मर्नु हो। यो मरिमराऊ कम गराउन केवल माओवादी कमजोर बनाइनु पर्छ।

- राजाले युद्ध हार्नु भनेको देशको सुरक्षा (सैनिक, प्रहरी लगायत देशको सम्पूर्ण संयन्त्र) ले हार्नु हो। राज्यले युद्ध हार्नु पर्ने स्थितिमा लाखौको संख्यामा मान्छे मारिनु पर्ने हुन्छ। यति ठूलो संख्यामा मान्छे मारिने भए भने अरु लाखौ मान्छे बिस्थापित हुन्छन्। त्यसले भारतमा पनि चाप बढ्छ। यसैलाई निहुं बनाएर भारतले आफ्नो सुरक्षाको कारण देखाई नेपालमा सैनिक हस्तक्षेप गर्न सक्छ। अहिलेकै परिप्रेक्षमा भारतमा यो कुरा उठिसकेको छ।