Hi friends,

I need some input from finance professionals and students in sajha. I've been trying to identify good MS in Finance programs to apply to. I have an undergraduate degree in finance (3.89 GPA) from a decent public university and am shooting for a 700+ GMAT score. The Finance programs at Princeton, Berkeley, U of Chicago and MIT seem to be the best in the US. However, all these programs except MIT's are highly quantitative requiring linear algebra, multivariable calculus and advanced statistics as pre-requisites. Since I do not meet these pre-requisites, I have decided to apply to MIT's program as my most ambitious pick. I'm now trying to identify 5-6 other programs that stand out in terms of quality. The most important criteria for me in deciding which colleges to apply to is the placement record of the school for MS in Finance students and particularly the placement record for international students.

Some programs that I've heard good things about are Vanderbilt's, U of Illinois's and Purdue's programs. I would be grateful if some of you could share your experience or knowledge on MS in finance programs. Do you know of schools that have good placement record for international students? Do you know anyone (intl students in particular) who has got into a top program and has received assistantships/ merit-based scholarships that cover most if not all of the tuition expenses?

I get your point. But it is hard to get a good entry level finance position in this economy especially for an international student on OPT with just an undergraduate degree. That's why I am trying to channelize all my efforts towards getting into a top program (not just any MS in Finance program) so that I can leverage my advanced degree and the school's placement service to land a good job. I've decided to pursue MS in Finance rather than MBA with Finance concentration because top MBA programs require at least 3-4 years of quality work experience whereas work experience is not a big factor in MS in Finance admissions.

Mr. Hawas, you said that you have passed the CFA exams. Are you talking about just level 1 or all 3 levels? I've passed level 1 and I'd be disappointed if you are inferring that it's hard to find a decent finance job even after passing all 3 levels of the CFA program.

I appreciate your response sab_nepaliko_sathi; it indeed is a reasonable one. To answer your question in the end, I am more interested in investment analysis/asset management rather than academics; hence the choice of MS in Finance over PhD in Finance

I don't see why you are taking GMAT instead of GRE. Also deficiency of math is a serious issue if you are aiming top finance programs. Even if you get into a top program, the lack of sufficient mathematics background is an hindrance to your success. It is better to have a good understanding of microeconomics, but math is the most important subject. Some finance companies don't discriminate between compsci, physics, math and finance degree itself, if the former three are done with sufficient rigor.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions Mr. Pire. I fully agree with your assessment of how a background in mathematics is extremely helpful for higher level studies in finance. In hindsight, I do feel that I should have pursued at least a Maths minor; instead I chose to do a double major in Finance and Accounting and a minor in economics. Having said that, I feel that I do have a decent quantitative background through classes such as calculus, linear regression, econometrics, mathematical economics, analysis of variance with experimental design and investment analysis.

I concur with your assessment of how it can be difficult to get funding even after getting into a top MS in Finance program. That's something I have come to realize through whatever little research I have done so far. I'm also serious about following your suggestion to apply to 20+ colleges and try and get into the best program that I possibly can based on my test scores (once I take the test), undergraduate performance and recommendations.

I recently graduated from Bentley University with a MSF degree. Had a job 5 months prior to graduation from Deloitte. Also had a job offer from Aon.. but I chose Deloitte. I am now happily working in Boston. I know many other international students from my batch who now work for E&Y,  KPMG and PWHC. The big 4 recruit A LOT of students from Bentley. I was one of the lucky ones! If you need help I can give you more information.

Dont apply to 20+ colleges.. apply to 5-6 good ones and 2 backups. Quality is better than quantity. Customize your essays (most university will require two) according to the univeristy you are applying to.. dont just submit a generic one.... you need to stand out.

Justcurious:

Jai_Nepal,

Agreed. Actually I am MBA (finance) graduate with few years of work experience, however I am having hard time finding a job. Can anyone help me?

FYI -  I am open for any (Entry level ) job in finance, accounting, auditing, or IT and any geographical location. BTW I am currenty at Bay Area, SF, CA.

Please advise.

I struggle to understand why you would want to put yourself through so much trouble.

Two points come to mind:

Firstly, I sincerely believe that more education *will not* provide you with extra opportunities - this is such an overblown misconception. You already have a bachelors degree - a foundational underpinning which you will need to nurture through work experience - and not through more education. You will have spent more money without the benefits - there are plenty of opportunities to network if that is the only reason you are applying. But I suspect the real reason is your immigration status and that you need to maintain it for the foreseeable future. And you are trying to make the best of it by attending grad school - which always does not equal the best choice. A dilemma, as I see it, could be remedied through work experience, even if it means applying for opportunities outside the US - this preservation will give you more satisfaction then you should ever hope for. Finance is *global* - so do not be afraid to stretch your reach elsewhere. If you are sickenly adamant about staying in the US then you will need to grab anything you can get your hands on, such as entry level accounting roles or doing budgeting for a mom-and-pop in a remote area - heard of Bryan, TX?  Or continue maintaining your status with more studies but you will not have gained anything - and you will be in the same situation once you graduate. If you are trying to go to grad school to explore quantitative finance in depth - you may have some valid reasons - see the second point below. 

Secondly, you seem to have a bit of contradiction in your understanding of roles within finance. The topic itself is quite broad - and you need to appreciate the choices available to you. This enormous field can have people working at so many different areas - most tend to misunderstand the skills required quite easily. Your interest lies in quantitative area of finance - in industry we call this a 'quant'. Their skills are in formulating mathematical algorithms for (program) trading, that is, the traders or computer programs trade almost anything trade-able in the market. Best of the breeds work at hedge funds or bulge bracket trading desks. But understand that PhDs in pure science is desired - and not necessarily that MS in financial engineering are not in demand. And this is totally opposite to investment analysis/asset mgmt which *also* seems to be your interest. For the latter, degree is not necessary but need to be intellectually passionate about investing, valuations, strategy, etc.

I have a BS in finance from one the universities you listed in your first post and currently work in management consulting - and I have been these roads many many times so I know what it is like. Your best bet is to get work experience asap - do whatever you have to (lawful that is) in order to get the foot in the door - much better teacher of lessons than any university degree.

Hope that provides you with some thoughts to ponder over. Let me know if you have more questions.

-JB

If you are contemplating career in Finance, it might behoove you to consider institutions in or near New York City.  Location of your school helps significantly when it comes to internships and jobs.

I agree with JB. Work experience is probably the most important aspect of a successful career. Try to get a job and get some experience when you are young.. the older you get the harder it will get to find a job if you have no experience.... do internships... even unpaid ones if you can sustain yourself without pay. Dont work in gas stations or Mc Donalds if you want to be successful in life... as it contributes nothing to your work experience.

Hello!!
I saw your inquiry about Finance and that drew my attention and thought of writing my views.
Before that let me tell you I used to be in US and I know the problem of International Students (specially in Management, Business, Finance etc). It is hard to get jobs in these field and that is why to avoid returning back to Nepal we all try to stick into higher education and end up doing courses which we may not like or which isn't necessary. Doing so, gets us into more debt and that isn't the real solution. All we are doing is: postponing the real game of going into job market and making real cash.
I know with international student status we can't work on our own without a work permit.. we need a sponsor and so on..Staying in US, we get so used to the culture of America that we want to make it here..no matter what!!
But based on my experience I would highly recommend you to try for Canada. There is hardly much difference between these two countries and I have seen many neglecting Canada. PR application is quite fast when you apply from US and since I have seen both the countries..believe me you won't regret.
I myself work for a Bank and am happy with it. Within a year I bought my home..it took approx. six months for me to get this job and survival  jobs is also really easy to get..i know the pay is not as great as US..but the real deal is to save with what you make. There are 100's of reason why choosing Canada for you would be advisable and the sooner you start the better. So, instead of wasting time for studying Masters and then Ph. D, I hope it will be better if you apply for Canada.. for nobody will give you a job based on your transcript or qualifications and the higher level you go without any plan, you will regret more.
Most of the time in North American countries what I see is.. you have to start from an entry level which requires no more than Bachelors degree and you can always move up if you work hard!! I rarely see any posting with requirement of Masters without any experience. So, to build up this experience you need to start with the process of getting a job and for that you need a status (permanent) which Canada is willing to offer faster than US. Also let me remind you that you get your Canadian Citizenship within 3 years.
Anyways, I wish you all the best for your career ahead. Lastly, I am not trying to say US isn't worthy..I love the country and have learnt a lot from my stay.. but my only point is to say that instead of going through hassle of so many complicated process it would be easier for you to reach your goals if you go my way...for you will atleast get your PR if you get your visa..and even if you don't get jobs in finance you can always work on your own.

Thank you for your response Mr. JavaBeans.

I want to clarify a few things first:

1. I am not interested in financial engineering (quant role). I made this obvious in my 1st post when I said that I am not looking to apply to princeton, berkeley and Chicago's programs since these programs are more geared towards preparing students for quant roles.

2. I do understand that work experience is more valuable than graduate level education for success in asset management/ investment analysis roles. My decision to pursue graduate education is more out of lack of opportunities (with an undergraduate degree from an average university) rather than choice.

I started looking for entry level finance job right after entering senior year in college. Even before that I tried hard to network as much as I could by joining professional organizations/honor societies, attending career fairs and so on. I even had the opportunity to interview for an equity analyst position at a highly regarded trading firm. However, despite by persistent efforts, I have not been able to find even a decent finance job. Its been ridiculously frustrating. The biggest drawback for me has been my non-resident status. In about 75% of the applications that I have filled the employers ask whether I would require visa sponsorship now or anytime in the future. Once you choose yes, my experience has been that you never hear back from the employer. I have recently accepted an accounting position but I am absolutely adamant on shaping my career in finance because finance is what I am passionate about. Although I respect your opinion, I really feel that at this point a graduate level finance degree from a top institution will give me the best opportunity to enter the realm of investment banking or asset management.

Don't get me wrong. I understand where you are coming from. If I had an undergraduate degree from a top of the league university (like you do), then I am absolutely confident that I wouldn't be in this situation. It's frustrating to see some of my american friends, who struggle even to understand  a simple regression model, land good finance jobs. It's not that I didn't make the effort. Please suggest me a better option if you have one?

Thank you for your suggestion Jyotidhital ji. I will definitely do some research on the option that you have suggested.

justcurious - if you are still around a few more thoughts below.

Careers in finance is very competitive - more so for graduates. You have to be awfully bright to convince your prospect employers that the only way they can hire you is if the green card sponsorship is part of the offer. If you are worth the hire they will bend over backwards to have their legal team draw up documents. This is the ONLY way for you to start your career in finance AND be able to reside in the US, given you have no other means for path to residency.

If the above sounds farfetched why not stick with your accounting job and apply to positions like  tax or F/X accounting - positions that are very specialized and not many people find these too exciting. But for you though it may earn you a green card. And these experiences will not be wasted if you move onto finance at a later point.

If green card is not so important to you there are far too many opportunities outside of the US - so by all means weigh your options carefully.

JavaBeans, I have a GC and I've got a Bachelor's in Finance ( I must confess that my GPA and grades are average at best ) w/ very little Maths background.

What do you think I should do? I've thought of going to Grad School but since I don't have a genuine work experience related to my field, a fantastic GPA, I don't think any decent school will even give me a chance to get admitted. If I had a MBA then hell, I'd probably even give up my Permanent residency and move back.

At this moment,  I lack ideas and what not. I've thought of joining QA courses but my computer background is limited too.

Do I have any hope?

I am interested in being/doing quant. I have my undergrad background in Math but my gpa is below 2.8. However, I also completed my masters in Applied Math with 3.6 gpa. I don't have any internship. I am thinking to apply for MFE in top programs like NYU, Baruch, Rutgers etc. Any idea what are my chances?

Mote, this is a second hand info so please take it with a grain of salt.

MFE will not help you land a true quant gig. You might have a fair chance of getting middle office role with MFE. Most quants have either Ph.D in physics or mathematics.

Bidroh - I am not sure that you need any advice. You have got all the ammunition to be able to fairly and competitively present yourself in the job market. If you have been through 4 years of college with certain degree of assurance that you are passionate about finance then you should have no problem formulating a game plan to approach an employer who may be interested in interviewing you - this is in spite of the current job market.

You need to be absolutely certain that this is what you want to do. Here is a couple of comments regarding a buy side analyst that may help you to start thinking about whether this is the right career choice. In finance, you cannot go through the motions of working in a position that requires a cookie cutter decision making or a 9-5 type of work ethic. There will never be one right answer to any one financial problem - the proposed solutions are always followed with myriads of assumptions. There are no standards to follow (unlike the IFRS and GAAP for accountants), just regulation. These assumptions will come from various areas of general knowledge and experience - strategy, accounting, industry sector, regulatory bodies, etc. And this requires a lot of work - research, overtime, conference calls, etc. There are other positions, i.e. credit analyst, risk management which may not be as stringent.

Again, it would be a mistake to get another degree in my opinion. Once you find out what makes you get up in the morning getting a college degree is a waste.