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nnepal
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Posted on 10-11-07 12:45
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What I do not understand in this debate is that elite from all groups including
Newars of Kathmandu and Thakalis and others, who were close to Rana and Shah Pariwar
helped to sustain the system for 250 years. Newars of Kathmandu have benefited much
more from the system than the Brahmins of Dailekg, for example. Why only the
Brahmins, majority of whom were as oppressed in this system are being blamed and
prosecuted for no faults of theirs? Present age is the age of knowledge. Brahmins
were forced to learn for their livelihood. If you remember Brahmin families put book
and pencil on six day of birth of a baby near hiss/her head and are happy if she/he
touches it because it is a sign of learning. From 5 years onward a Brahmin boy is
forced to learn, school or no school. Why is it bad? When I was a kid I used to
watch from the widow that across our house a seven/eight year boy's Tupi was tied
by a rope to a peg on the ceiling so that when he napped it will wake him up. He has
a PhD degree now. If in this modern age if he has advantage over the others, how
is that exploitation. If they study it is not their fault. The cast system in the
sub-content was devised thousands of years ago. Why to blame the current generation
of Brahmins, who are contributing to changing the system at this juncture? It is
true that we need to democratize our power sharing system, open up widely avenues of
study and knowledge and provide support to other groups to lean and enable them to
share power.
Whole this debate about indigenous and non-indigenous people has been relevant to US
and Australia, where the original residents were annihilated completely in recent
history. They are like in the ZOO now. They have imposed this on UN system. Who came
first to South Asia? or Nepal? Much is made out of abolition of Kipat land system in
the eastern Nepal. It was a capitalist move to free land for individual ownership
and exploitation. Not a feudal measure, as is made out to be by Kaplan. What about
Zamidari system introduced by the British in the sub-continent? Abolition of Kipat
system in Nepal was the completion of the process of individualizing land ownership
in Nepal. Was all land given to Brahmin/ Chetri or divided among Kipat members, who
were Limbus too, I presume. Probably afterwards Brahmin/Chretris bought the land.
The did not get it free as under feudal system of land grants. I need to study this
in detail and bust the false logic introduced by the West with their policies of
divide and rule. At this juncture I have only some idea not much sound knowledge on
this. We in South Asia do not have history of annihilation of races as in US or
Australia. What the winning races seem to have done is to integrate all people into
a hierarchy, where they put themselves at the top. Once I asked one of the Janajati
leaders why you raised this issues of indigenous and not-indigenous, he said that
because UN does not recognize Janajati. Even if you look through the Marxist
literature, Marx himself predicted that capitalism will advance incessantly to break
all barriers to free competition between individuals, so that it can exploit their
labor power. Now it's attack is on the nation-states. Further it will break the
group barriers atomizing the individuals as laborers. Janajatis talk about
imperialism of Nepali language but not about the English language, Hindu Festival oh
Dashai but not introduction of Christmas in our public places. There is no doubt
that we need by langue primary education and trilingual school education. But there
is no need revile the whole process of creation of a Nepali lingua-franca in Nepal.
Those who talk about this send their children to English school. The laboring class
who has to search for their livelihood in Nepal, India or overseas can not afford
such luxury. What a fallacy?
I fail to understand why have the so called leftists picked up this false logic of
dividing the people in various caste and groups rather than rather than class and
uniting them for a meaningful power sharing and progressive transformation of Nepal.
It seems to be a pure political game, no different from the games of other political
parties or the King , divide and rule? Now they have become victims of their own
doing in Madhesh and given India a free field in Nepal.
Actual transformation of society can not be achieved by force. It has been proved by
the world history so far, socialist or no socialist violence. The disintegration of
Soviet Union and other eastern European countries and China's current path even
after the violence of cultural revolution are glaring examples of this failure. On
the other hand some Scandevian countries and India's attempts at social
transformation have been peaceful. It is messy and full of loopholes but it seems
the only way.
This might sound regressive but I do not consider myself regressive. This needed to
be brought out and I have done it. I am for a just transformation of Nepal's State
structure and social transformation of the society. But I am not ready for breaking
Nepal because it was created by war. All modern states have been created by war. The
issue is how we transform it to suit the equality and equity oriented age do 21st
century.
That is all for now.
Meena Acharya
Baneswor
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gitanjali
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Posted on 10-11-07 1:19
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Suru mai "What I do not understand in this debate.. " re !!!
Kosle debate garne bhanya thyo?
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nnepal
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Posted on 10-11-07 1:37
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Gitanjali ji.. Need to understand before replying...act in haste is not good ever time.. this post is written in Nepal Officer Online Group...I copied and paste it in Sajha..So people can understand..
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gitanjali
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Posted on 10-11-07 2:00
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kya ho yo jantu "Nepal Officer Online Group"? ani tya post bhayera kun chai babaal bhayo ta? as wall street journal mai publish bhaye jasto.
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North Point
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Posted on 10-11-07 3:45
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this is the biggest piece of crap i have read. nnepal - get real and look around. the whole country is burning. wake up from your slumber dude.
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nnepal
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Posted on 10-11-07 4:35
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NorthPoint Burning re...aba banki ke cha....re brother......Nepal ko yo ago yastai bali rahancha...don’t worry..If you are in not Nepal….very good coz I also don’t want to stay long over here…. Well, Community ko kura kasle gare ko cha…pakai pani bahun le gare ko chainna….community ko kura uthauda….bichha ma kina bahun lai ghisarincha…what is our fault?? Ma bahun bhaya re mailee kasai ko kunai bhag khaye ko chaina…na maileee kunai job ma apply garda advantage payee ko chu…. Why don’t you all work to lift your community beside blaming bahun…If you people start then I sure you community will be the top community in the country…..bidesh ma base re sajha ma bahun ko birodh garee ra kehi hunna sathi ho…Come Nepal and fight for hunger, Fight for Education..Fight for right…fight for make your community competitive…………….you community will be left soon…..that is what I am trying to message who is blaming bahun…….I swear I will support you all….
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North Point
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Posted on 10-11-07 4:52
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Read this article and perhaps you will get a sense of what I'm trying to say. Of course you will resist. And that is the reason why our country is so much screwed up. You think this war is about repub vs royals? thats only superficial - real war is abt jatiya equality and dont worry we are fighting, cant you see?
(Courtesy: Sano Baje)
For those of us who have lived with this phenomenon all our lives, what is described below is no big revelation. However, for the benefit of those who think Nepali politics boils down to a struggle between Royalists and Maoists, or democrats and autocrats, or centrists and extremists, they are only partially correct. There is one other critical grouping that serves as chief sponsor of the political turmoil in Nepal - the Bahunists.
Who are the Bahunists?
So who (what) exactly are the Bahunists? Well, those who believe in Maoism are Maoists; those who believe in the Royal tradition are Royalists. Similarly, those who believe in the "Bahun-baad" tradition, are the Bahunists.
What is the "Bahun-baad" tradition and who precisely are the Bahunists? Ask any Janajati, Dalit, Newar, Madhesi (or non-Brahmin individual) - he or she will provide you a dissertation on what "Bahun-baad" is and exactly how much damage the Bahunists have done to the idea of liberal democracy in Nepal.
Ask the Chhetris, the Thakuris, the Ranas, the Thapas, the Mallas, the Shresthas, the Tamrakars, the Kayasthas (etc.) the same question, and it is likely they will give you a different answer. Members of these groups are sure to know who the Bahunists are, but they probably don't understand the phenomenon that well.
Why? Because for centuries, Bahunists have successfully performed as the mechanism that enables (and amplifies) Nepal's feudal traditions; at the same time, the Bahunists have been successful in portraying the non-Bahunists as either the face, or the victims of feudalism.
Why are the Bahunists so Angry and Dangerous?
It is important to note that not all Brahmins are Bahunists. Just like not all Chhetris are Royalists and not all Janajatis are Maoists. This being said, all Bahunists (like other minority extremists), are bad news. Just like the hard-core Royalists give the Chhetris a bad name, the hard-core Bahunists give the Brahmins a bad name.
At least when Royalists have disagreements with other Royalists, all they do is publish trashy articles about each other in the media. When Maoists argue with other Maoists, the one with the bigger balls puts the other one in detention and then India steps in and sorts things out.
When Bahunists have arguments with other Bahunists, all hell breaks loose - look at what happened when the Bahunists in the Nepali Congress and the Bahunists in the Maoists disagreed - the whole country suffered for 12 years!! This is one of many reasons why Bahunists are bad for Nepal, just like their extremist friends from other camps.
To put it plainly, the Bahunists have functioned for ages as priests and "purohits" (mostly in the houses of high-caste Chhetris, Hindu temples, etc.) during times of unrest and war. During times of peace, they have operated in the shadows, for example, by completely Sanskritizing the exam to enter the Nepali Foreign Service, by excluding members of other ethnic groups and castes from politics, by monopolizing the state's political beaurecracy, by inserting key Bahunists in the Nepali Police, etc.
The Bahunists' fathers and forefathers accomplished the process of monopolizing state power (from within government), but some Bahunist off-spring are still angry. Why are Bahunist off-spring so violently against the idea of Monarchy? Because they are now accomplished in their own fields and find shame in the fact that their ancestors were preists in the Palace.
It's all very simple. Bahunist off-spring feel entitled to respect because of their accomplishments, but are unable to let go of their ancestral pasts and earn the respect just like everyone else. Shame is a powerful driver of hatred, as anti-Americanism flourishing the Arab world has shown. But Bahunists are embarrassed and angry for the all the wrong reasons.
If Bahunists (who have enjoyed privileged existences their whole lives) are angry, how should the Janajati and Madhesi and other minority groups feel at being repressed by the Bahunists all their lives? Remember, it may be a stupid individual like Gyanendra who sits at the wheel of the "ship," but read history - it has always been Bahunists that have guided and assisted idiots like Gyanendra, navigate the "ship."
What do Bahunists, Illiberal Democrats and the Ku Klux Klan, have in common?
In Nepal, Nepotism, sycophancy and exclusion all have one thing in common - the Bahunists. With the exception of a few "token" members from other caste groups, Nepal's politics, Nepal's education system, Nepal's public sector, Nepali media, are all completely dominated by Bahunists and their circle of semi-slaves.
When examined according to the dimensions of elite-ness and exclusivity, the Bahunists in Nepal behave much like the Ku Klux Klan (at their height), in the United States of America. The Bahunists look down on other castes, they feel superior to other classes and they advocate Bahunist supremacy, non-stop.
The "beauty" of how the Bahunists operate is that they do so under the idea of democracy, inclusion, equality and social harmony. They project the image that they are for the rights of minorities, that they are for the weak and downtrodden, that they are the most democratic of all groups.
But truly, nothing could be further from the truth. Bahunists act in favour of other Bahunists. They elevate the status of only Bahunists. They represent the very core of what is rotten in Nepal's democracy. The "Bahun-baad" phenomenon (as propagated by the Bahunists) is the single biggest threat to social harmony, to liberal democracy, to equality, and peace in Nepal.
What do you think Dor Bahadur Bista was talking about when he wrote "Fatalism and Development in Nepal?" Who do you think the International Crisis Group is referring to when they issue statements like: "Control over the peace process has not increased confidence; that all decisions were made behind closed doors by a handful of Brahman men leaves sceptics wondering if ten years of conflict has done anything to change underlying structures."
Here's another (more recent) quote from ICG: "So far the (peace) process has concentrated on building elite consensus at the expense of intense political debate or extensive public consultations."
If you guessed the Bahunists (in response to all three references above), you're absolutely right.
Who are some of the more prominent anti-Bahunists and why is their struggle not providing results?
What makes the Bahunists particularly destructive is that they are found at the top layers of every political entity in Nepal. They are at the top of the UML, they are at the top of the the Maoists, they are entrenched in the judiciary. In fact, the very core leadership of the Nepali Congress right now, are all Bahunists.
If you ever wondered about why people like Gagan Thapa, or Rabindra Shrestha (or even the JTMM) are so very annoyed with their mother organizations, it's because they resent being subdued by the Bahunists.
If you're still wondering why the Madhesi community's spontaneous uprising has been so full of passion, it's simple. It's because the Madhesis resent all decisions of political importance being made by a congregation of Bahunists. It's because they are sick and tired of Bahunists playing games with the future of Madhesis.
Like the Janajatis, the Madhesis know from experience who runs the mechanics of Nepal's feudal structure. There might be an idiot at the top of the pyramid of feudalism, but the entire base of this pyramid is full of Bahunists and their sympathizers. Thank goodness Jana Aandolan-II has clarified this beyond any credible doubt.
How do Bahunists react when they face a common threat?
When Bahunists face a threat to their powerbase, they come up with conspiracies. And not just small conspiracies, but elaborate theories that span many years and multiple dimensions. To the Bahunists, any threat to their undemocratic, exclusive, power-base is explained by a sophisticated conspiracy.
Fortunately, over the past few months, Bahunist conspiracies have gotten them into more trouble than they would care to admit.
For example, when the Bahunists came up with conspiracy theories about the Madhesi uprising being part of an elaborate Royalist design, this added anger and fuel to the Madhesi uprising.
When the Maoist Bahunists (yes, the Bahunists are at the top of the pecking order within the Maoists as well) and the Bahunists in the Nepali Congress schemed to discredit the Madhesi movement, the Madhesi movement gathered even more momentum.
When the Bahunists refused to ask one of their own to resign (in order to start negotiations with the Madhesis), naturally, the Madhesis understood exactly how much "respect" the Bahunists have for the Madhesi population.
It is hilarious when Bahunists make statement about how much they have given to the Madhesi community by "allowing" them citizenship rights. This is the Bahunists' attempt at gaining sympathy from the Madhesi community. Even more hilarious is when the Bahunists claim stake to being members of the Madhesi community (for electoral reasons).
Everyone knows that the biggest threat to continued Bahunist domination comes from movements that demand ethnic assertion, equality and proportional representation - you know, movements like the Madhesi movement and the Janajati movement.
There are thousands of examples of Royalist conspiracies that are outlined by the Bahunists (from within the Maoists and other political groups). In fact, anything that even remotely threatens the Bahunists' hold on power, is framed as a conspiracy against democracy.
Here are some excellent examples of Bahunists in action: "Janajati Nepal Banda: Royalists in Charge (and Other Headlines)" (http://www.blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2007/02/28/janajati-nepal-banda-royalists-in-charge-and-other-headlines/) and "Surya Bahadur Thapa Interview: Hidden Messages?" (http://www.blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2007/02/26/surya-bahadur-thapa-interview-hidden-messages/).
How do Bahunists react when they are under public scrutiny?
In the old days, if attacked, Bahunists would run back to their priestly duties and seek protection from Hinduism - "respect your priest, do not harm your guru, feed him well, clothe him well, bull shit, bull shit, bull shit."
In recent times, Bahunists tend to throw money at whatever problems they are having. But when half the country's population is rising against the Bahunists, they are finding that spending money alone, isn't getting them relief. This is making the Bahunists extremely nervous.
Another technique Bahunists use is that they immediately mobilize their global Bahunist network, Bahunists in the media, and Bahunists across the political spectrum, to spread misinformation, to sensitize issues and to manipulate (detract) the Nepali public's mood. As technology has grown and access to information along with it, the Bahunists have mastered the means to amplify their Bahunist cause.
What Royalists failed to understand is the distinction between love for the institution and hatred for the individual; What the Maoists understand (but intentionally ignore) is that one does not have to be a Royalist to oppose Maoist tyranny; What the Bahunists fail to understand is that whether the Maoists come to power or not, whether Nepal becomes a republic or not, the Bahunists are exposed once and for all!!
Forecasting the Future of "Bahun-baad" and the Bahunists
Of course, all "good" things come to an end. With people across Nepal awakening from the Maoist nightmare, ethnic assertion and demands for equality are at the very top of every agenda. People are demanding their rights in the most democratic way possible and such demands have caught the Bahunists off balance.
Being caught by surprise is what is bringing the Bahunists in the Nepali Congress and the Bahunists in the CPN-M together. The merger of the Bahunists from different political leanings is what is fuelling the ethnic movements across the country.
Slowly but surely, the games, the politics, the conspiracies and the machinations that underpin the "Bahun-baad" philosophy and elevate the Bahunists in Nepal, will come to an abrupt end. The days of the Bahunist democracy and Bahunist candidates representing regions that are home to other ethnic groups, are numbered. Just wait till the Constituent Assembly elections roll around.
How will the Bahunists react to this writing?
When the Bahunists read this posting (and they will most certainly read it), I am sure they will come up with one conspiracy theory after another to discredit the ideas embodied in the writing. In reading Bahunist responses, look out in particular for the following themes:
- This is a Royalist conspiracy to bring about ethnic disharmony in Nepal - Right, everything that challenges Bahunist domination is a conspiracy of some sort.
- The writing is completely flawed - it is the Chhetris, the Ranas and the Shahs who are the root of feudalism in Nepal - "238 years of the Shah dynasty, etc. Sure, that is, minus 238 years of Priests and Gurus forecasting the future of the Shah dynasty.
- The ideas captured in this article are designed specifically to derail the Constituent Assembly elections - Why in the world would we want to do that? The CA elections are guaranteed to destroy Bahunism once and for all. If anyone, it is the Bahunists who are eager to sabotage CA elections. Loss of power for the Bahunists, is a certainty.
Watch out particularly for the non-Bahun authors who comment on the ideas articulated in the writing above. Those will be the most Bahunist responses of all.
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North Point
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Posted on 10-11-07 4:58
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coffee333
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Posted on 10-11-07 8:42
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Bahun Vs Non-Bahun Nepali Vs Bhutani Saranarthi Pahade Vs Madhesi Chawaank Vs Naramri... lol Royalist Vs Maobadi Dhani Vs Garib Kukur Vs Biralo Republic Vs Monarchy Kattu Vs Dhoti ...lol Pakhe Vs Smarty ass... lol Hindi Vs Muslim Buda Vs Taruna daju vs bhai ama ba vs chora chori There is no point arguing on such topics... It will further divide the communities.. which are already divided. Lets not be the victims of few narrow minded creatures and their craps.. Maobadi chanting slogan against former royalist and asking people to boycott them socially is an immature step. People have to be broad minded to accept the fact that they can drag those royalist to the court rather than dividing people further more. One of the family member could be culprit not the whole family. They are well aware of this fact but they just want to harbor the hatred in our heads so that they can use the strength of hatred to their benefits. Dont forget that maobadies have killed thousands of people.. and they are the one who are bragging to bring justice to the society. Its not the time to divide the communities.... or ethnic groups. Lets stay united and use all our senses before being a part of the plan planted by those opportunistic people.
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ne23pe
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Posted on 10-11-07 8:43
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North Point if you read the article very carefully you will also notice that the article says any one can be Bahunist and doesn't blame all the Bahuns. Also you can highlight all the word but you have failed to read and understand other statements made before and after that. The point that nnepal was trying to make was yes there are bahuns who have done and still doing things to harm our society but just lunping all bahuns do the same is a fault. Thats like saying everything bad thing you do will make your race at fault, which of course isn't true. Just dont be so judgemental bro, take time to understand what nnepal was trying to say.
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ne23pe
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Posted on 10-11-07 8:47
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coffee333 I will tell you one thing: We are already divided weather someone likes it or not. I can see it from Sajha (educated bunch) already that Nepali community will never come together and it is better that way and this is not just an opinion but from experience as well.
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wretch
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Posted on 10-11-07 9:33
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to NorthPoint:
1. 238 years of the Shah dynasty, etc. Sure, that is, minus 238 years of Priests and Gurus forecasting the future of the Shah dynasty. HUh?!!! what is your point here??
2. At least when Royalists have disagreements with other Royalists, all they do is publish trashy articles about each other in the media. "When Maoists argue with other Maoists, the one with the bigger balls puts the other one in detention and then India steps in and sorts things out". Arent you reffering to same incident as this one "...and the Bahunists in the Maoists disagreed - the whole country suffered for 12 years!! "
3. IF YOU ARE VERY UPSET WITH THE FACT THAT TOP LEADERS OF MAOIST ARE BAHUNS EVEN IF THEY ARE DEMNDING EQUAL RIGHTS AND PROTECTION FOR ALL CASTES AND CREEDS THEN YOU MUST NEED SOME HELP.
4. Criminals and Bhrastachari has no caste. Remember That great bhrastachari Marich Man Shrestha who oppressed all nepalese, btw he didnt spare newars as well, during jana andolan of 2046. There are whole list of such examples. Deshdrohi is Deshdrohi- He/she dont have any caste.
5. We should fight for "bargiya Sngharsa" unlike "Jatiya" within pahade. But Madehi people do need Jatiya Sangharsa because its about their race no matter how high class they are. Newar, Gurung and other caste living in cities like kathmandu, Dharan has higher privilage and oppurtunity than that of bahuns from rural district. They go to high class boarding schools in valley yet get advantage of Quota over fellow bahun student coming from governmental school of rural area without electricity. Isnt that unfair? If quota system was based on class, rather than JAAT which you guys keep talking a lot, giving priorities to lower income people from rural area then face of the rural nepal would have already different.
If you just hate with the fact that bahuns are in top of everything then you are just being jealous. See Ram Bahadur thapa BADAL and even our own Deuba (did anybody know his childhood background?) Nepal has been multiethnic soceity and will always remain. Dont bring more chaos to this already derailed country. Unity is power.
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wretch
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Posted on 10-11-07 9:33
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to NorthPoint:
1. 238 years of the Shah dynasty, etc. Sure, that is, minus 238 years of Priests and Gurus forecasting the future of the Shah dynasty. HUh?!!! what is your point here??
2. At least when Royalists have disagreements with other Royalists, all they do is publish trashy articles about each other in the media. "When Maoists argue with other Maoists, the one with the bigger balls puts the other one in detention and then India steps in and sorts things out". Arent you reffering to same incident as this one "...and the Bahunists in the Maoists disagreed - the whole country suffered for 12 years!! "
3. IF YOU ARE VERY UPSET WITH THE FACT THAT TOP LEADERS OF MAOIST ARE BAHUNS EVEN IF THEY ARE DEMNDING EQUAL RIGHTS AND PROTECTION FOR ALL CASTES AND CREEDS THEN YOU MUST NEED SOME HELP.
4. Criminals and Bhrastachari has no caste. Remember That great bhrastachari Marich Man Shrestha who oppressed all nepalese, btw he didnt spare newars as well, during jana andolan of 2046. There are whole list of such examples. Deshdrohi is Deshdrohi- He/she dont have any caste.
5. We should fight for "bargiya Sngharsa" unlike "Jatiya" within pahade. But Madehi people do need Jatiya Sangharsa because its about their race no matter how high class they are. Newar, Gurung and other caste living in cities like kathmandu, Dharan has higher privilage and oppurtunity than that of bahuns from rural district. They go to high class boarding schools in valley yet get advantage of Quota over fellow bahun student coming from governmental school of rural area without electricity. Isnt that unfair? If quota system was based on class, rather than JAAT which you guys keep talking a lot, giving priorities to lower income people from rural area then face of the rural nepal would have already different.
If you just hate with the fact that bahuns are in top of everything then you are just being jealous. See Ram Bahadur thapa BADAL and even our own Deuba (did anybody know his childhood background?) Nepal has been multiethnic soceity and will always remain. Dont bring more chaos to this already derailed country. Unity is power.
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BathroomCoffee
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Posted on 10-11-07 10:02
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STOP THIS BULLSHIT enough is enough
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torikophul
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Posted on 10-11-07 10:18
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This is f#@king bullshit. By posting this thread and commenting for/against this topic, you are further dividing the Nepalese communities. Stop it if you really care about NEPAL.
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Kalki Kapil
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Posted on 10-11-07 11:28
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Girija=Prachanda=Bhattarai=Makune, etc
= Height of USELESSNESS...if these are not BAHUNS THEN WHO THE GOD DAMN ARE>>>>
= see this pic...
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Kalki Kapil
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Posted on 10-11-07 11:32
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DAMN BAHUN RAJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Aug25,1997
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Posted on 10-11-07 11:35
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Guys grow up please...
This is the last thing we need while our entire nation is burning.
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BathroomCoffee
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Posted on 10-11-07 11:39
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One more time STOP THIS BULLSHIT
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gahugoro
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Posted on 10-11-07 11:46
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